eww That's what I was afraid of. I just can't imagine a WW sin without 4.5 - 5K damage. 3.4 with elite gear, and much less for those who can't afford it > OUCH. You can't really hurt people that bad with that after the PVP penelty. I think your build would be entirely dependent on stun locking ememies before they can actually hit ya. No way you can tank anyone with that damage. Remember, pvp penelty is 1/6 for physical, but much less for poison. That is the exact reason why venom hurts most people so much. It cuts through bone armor, cyclone, and pvp penelties far better then physical damage ever could. Also, bramble sins have the same amount of open wounds you do, so I'm not sure why that was mentioned by you as a source of more damage. Venom sins have the same open wounds you do, more physical damage because of better claws, and much more venom damage.

I'm telling you man, that doesn't work with teleport. It ONLY works with dragon flight. If you teleport near someone with your shadow master, it is random luck to see if the spirits hit you or the master. It can just as easily hit you if your standing closer to the necro then the shadow is. But if you dragon flight on him with shadow master, it's an actual bug in the game. Every missle attack no matter if they name lock you or not, will ALWAYS hit the shadow master first until she dies. Your little thing with teleport, is just dumb luck if they happen to hit the shadow first. There is no bug that protects you with minion teleporting. Again, it's ONLY with dragon flight

Well, all I can say is they must have been incredibly bad, because one on one, bramble sin vs a bowazon, isn't even a fair duel. It's like 99% chance the Bramble sin will win. You run semi circle towards the bowazon so the arrows don't catch you, and when your on his screen, dragon flight. You get your flight before even getting hit by the arrows tracking you because with BOS cast, you run faster then guided arrows by a long shot. It's so easy to get the first hit on bowazons. After that, a few arrows will hit you, but by then, he is either dead, or very low life and is on the run. He has no shield man. Dragon flight from bramble sins with kick boots hurts a lot, and if they evade it, even better, it means you have all the time in the world to actually WW them. Mind blast / Dragon flight / WW one more time and GG. It's a guaranteed win if you have any skill whatsoever with assassins. If they run shoot to stay out of dragon flight range, that's even easier to beat them. It means they are barely shooting at all, because I run so much faster then them and their arrows, that if they try to stay out of dragon flight range by running backwards, I chase them down so quick and don't even have to worry about arrows coming because there are none coming. Bowazons are only a challenge to those who run at them, or duel with fade cast. With BOS, and knowing how to duel them, it's not much of a duel. Beating 2 ww sins with a bowazon must mean they were god awful duelers

I'm probably going to try it out just to do something different, but that 3.4k damage is a major deterant. I'll fill you in on my progress.

BTW: My resists are way over stacked with BOS cast with just a few minor gear changes actually. The only caster I don't usually duel with BOS on is Bliz sorc's, unless I really feel like putting on an extra 6 cold resist sc's, which I usually get bored of doing. All other casters no matter what element they are, I can stack over their facets, and duel them with BOS cast with all max resists in Hell.

Also, what is the anya bug? Is that something on East? and also, what are the bugged mana charms you mentioned? 15/70?

This post was edited by wu-banger on Sep 28 2004 11:28am

Your estimate is about right, only that charms are more on east and valk is less.
on west you could go maras.. and if your poor shadows.

I think you could make a budget version of this sin for 40 290's or less.

Here is my imagined Budget version

chaos runics-1 290
Fury Ferals-1 290
Enigma-2 290
08 valk-10-17 290
Maras-1 290
2x good raven-1 290
arach-1 290
decent verd-1 290
weak cta-3 290
10x plain shadows-5 290
9x plain 5 all res sc's- 3 290

28 290's for budget version, not to mention most people already have enigma and cta.

I just choose to pour everything i have into my asn ><

A few problems with your logic wu-banger.

First, it actually costs more than you predicted. Your values for some of the items are a little too modest.

second, however, 90 Runes isn't that much for a godly PvP character. Good trappers can go well past that, and a full inventory of first-tier high life skillers is even more than that.

Third, Anya bug was referred to early in the topic. When you die, the resists you get from Anya quests go away until the next game you join. So basically, when you die, -30 res for you.

Fourth, he's hitting 65 FCR, not 105, I think....

Fifth, 86% FHR is the icing on the cake, not necessary...

Sixth, I have great respect from you judging by your posts, wu-banger, but you just lost quite a bit of it by judging a character on listed damage. We all know listed damage is not a good parameter. When tons and tons of WWsin's damage (easily half in my experience....) comes from OW, does listed damage matter?

Seventh, have you met bowzons that don't stand in one place?

Eigth, 15/70s are these bugged small charms on East with 70 mana and 15 life. They completely change the face of dueling. You walk into a pubby, good chances are that there are 7 Energy Shield Sorcs around....

Hope that helped.

i just wanted to say you can use a griffions eye with an ias jewel in it for a budget helm also

1) I was being modest, and I said I was being modest. I think that build would cost closer to 110 runes to buy. Not much point to that, just a side note that I wanted to get a comment on.

2) When comparing the value of characters face to face, I think low end ghost varients would suck really bad. I think high end ones in the 100+ rune range might work well, but at the end of the day it really does get down to the fact that Koda is a very skilled dueler. most likely one of the highest skill players out there. The only reason I respect the build as much as I do is because I play kick assassin a lot, so I know exactly how to stun lock any character. For 99% of players out there, they don't have the first damn clue how to stun lock. It takes mad practice as koda will probably attest too. This ghost varient, as I have said many times already, would take a tremendous amount of skill. Basically making it too frustrating for the vast majority of players. Great for koda and the like, but not good at all for the general public.

3) I've never heard of anya bug before. I'm sure it's not a problem on west, otherwise we would all know about it and bank on it when making characters and calculating resists and such. Sounds shitty. I personally stack way over anyway, but if it was in effect, I guess my stack is 30% less then I thought. I'm quite sure it isn't there though so no worries for me.

4) Any assassin, even bramble assassins, can easily hit the 42% break point. getting 1 extra frame while giving up so much is really not worth it IMO. However, FCR and teleport is what the build is based on, so of course for him it's vital. I just don't think it's needed because my same old problem, teleport is never needed for WW sins if you learn how to use dragon flight vs eveyr character. But, that is what the whole thing is about so that is a mute point here.

5) I think fast hit recovery is far more benificial then FCR, but then again, i'm a bramble sin, so of course I would.

6) I don't judge a character on listed damage alone, but as I clearly pointed out, you guys keep referring to open wounds as your main source of damage, yet you fail to realize that bramble sins have the EXACT same Open wounds that you do. I would never judge a character on listed damage because if you can stop the other guy from attacking back, which is your goal with the ghost, then what does it matter. Believe me, i'm every bit as skilled a dueler, so you don't have to tell me what time it is. All i'm saying is that if you compare stats on Bramble sins to ghost sin, I think he gives up far too much. Bramble sins have 1500 more damage at least, 5K more attack rating, more fast hit recovery, a little more free of an inventory, Massive kick damage on dragon flight, and a much stronger blade fury due to the venom damage (a highly overlooked skill mind you) There are quite a few instances where I use blade fury. It does hit more then people give it credit for. You just have to know when to use it, and when not to. Basically, the ghost gives up all that, which is a lot, and gains what? Teleport? That's what dragon flight is for

7) I've never met a bowazon that stands still and tanks. The point however is, no matter what bowazons do, and I do mean no matter what, they will still lose. They run slower, don't dish nearly enough damage, and cannot keep me away from them no matter what. It all adds up to a dead zon. Whether I kill them with half life left, or untouched, they all die just the same. Mute point, the ghost would rape any bowazon just as easy so...

8) Must be nice to have those bugged charms. I now see why I hear so much about Energy shield sorc's on east, where there are almost none on west unless you messed up your character. That would come in handy for orb / energy shield sorc's. I guess that's why I carry 91% open wounds and massive venom damage on my sin. I don't care how much mana shield they have, they still go down.


Well, again, intresting analysis. Everyone's opinion is valid and fair which is why I like posting on this forum so much even though everyone on it seems to be East. Things truly are different on your side of the world

This post was edited by wu-banger on Sep 28 2004 09:40pm