jajajaa ez

I've left out the use of ists/ptopaz, yada..


Complete list of full (p) Tal stats:


**Cool aura

Def. 1176
+5 sorc skills
138% light resist
105% cold resist
105% fire resist
25% FHR
+179 mana
+10 energy
+20 dex
+317 life
168% mf
20% FCR
37% dmg goes to mana
+2 LM
+2 FM
+2 CM
10% life stolen per hit
10% mana stolen per hit
replenish life +10



This build (CoH.ds861def, Occy, Shaco104def, Arach127def, 21resMara) The actual items I'm using on my meteorb.

**No cool aura
Def. 988
+10 skills
109% light resist
109% fire resist
109% cold resist
+27 Energy (54 mana)
+27 Strength
+27 Vitality (54 life)
125% MF
50% FCR
Damage reduced by 18%
Increase max mana 5%
Slows target by 10%
+5 mana after each kill
+7 Replenish Life
8% Life Stolen
+200% damage to demons
+100% damage to undead



The difference if you choose Tal rasha:

+188 def
-5 skills
+29 light resist
-4 cold resist
-4 fire resist
+25% FHR
+125 mana
+263 life
+20 dex
+43% MF
-30% FCR
37% Dmg goes to Mana
+2 LM
+2 FM
+2 CM
-18% Dmg reduction
-5% Increased Mana


So in my particular case, with these items that I use, I have to ask myself:

Is an extra +188 defense, +29 light resist, 25% fhr, 125 mana, 263 life, 20 dex, and 43% mf worth it? Or would I rather have the extra +5 skills, 18% dmg reduct, 5% mana increase, 4 cold/fire resist, 30% FCR.
For me, I chose the OP's build with the CoH, etc.. the 18% dmg reduct helps justify the missing life, and the 5% mana increase justifies the missing 125 mana. The 43% mf would be nice, but with a gheeds/1 nagel/travs, yada.. it's easy to get 300-350mf. The extra +5 skills just can't be ignored and is about all I need to hear to know most people would rather go with the OP's build. And I'd rather have 30% FCR than 25% FHR, the 55% FHR from a spirit is plenty.
I'm not sure about FCR with a full tal build but with the OP's build hitting the 105 FCR is a given. With the Tal set you're going to have to find the FCR elsewhere, like in your rings or buying charms.



The obvious conclusion to all this for me is that the OP's build is definitely a 'better' build and a much stronger build, I have max resist in hell except for fire (61%), 18% dmg reduct, and +17 fire skills/16 rest (w/o a SoJ) . At level 83, Without BO on I do 8800 FB and 18791 Meteor, on I do 9313 FB & 19871 Meteor. No +skill GC.

Though the Tal set is close enough behind that it is very VERY good for people looking to try the same build on a budget, it just isn't up to par with the former build if you have the fg to spare.

Nice comparison, but completely wrong in lots of places!

For example: FCR and FHR. My sorc with full Tal set + magefist+ spirit 35 and with ether 2x 5fhr sc or a skiller with 12 fhr has exactly 105 fcr (no fcr rings - soj and raven), and a little bit over the 86 fhr bp.
Tal set gives you 50 fcr not 20, so you only need Magefist or Trang gloves and a spirit, and voila, you're set. Also imho anything less than 86 fhr is not safe when blind teleing, and Tals with spirit gives you 80 already.

Won't go in the occy 25% rand teleing mater, I just prefer noting less than full control. I know hoto is the key, but then where is the extra mf?

About the 5 extra skills... It's actually 6 to all sorceress skills + 2 to cold,fire,lightning masteries, plus dot forget -15% to enemy fire and lightning resistance, and 15% extra cold dmg. Do the math... these in their own are worth more than +2 extra skills, because they're added at the end of the calculation, which is huge difference. To make it even sweeter, just add a 5/-5 fire facet to the armor (can't do that with coh), and it's -20 res and 5 fire dmg extra already. If you want we can walk trough the math step-by-step...

The only downside is that you get fever extra skills to add to your cta when using bo.

Here is my full build (still experimenting with it tho) eu scl lvl92:

Magefist 2x upped (just for fun)
Full Tal set with 3 perf fire lvl facets (helm,armor, orb) 15 extra fire dmg, -30 enemy resistance total with tal set , these add quite nicely to my dmg
- tal belt 15 mf
- tal orb 2/2/x
Wt46
Spirit 35/105/6
Soj (self found - thanks Andy)
Raven, dex doesn't matter since not block sorc, so can be crap.

On switch: crap spirit for bo, and 5-4-4 cta

Stash:
anni 15-18-7
torch 13-20
1x sc 3@ - not needed with max @ anni
3x 6 mf sc
3x 7mf sc
gheed 39/10
6 fire skillers , 1 with 12 fhr for the bp. <- 6 may be a bit much however, but sure is fun.
8 spaces free to pick up item(s).

belt: life, full potions, ident, tp scrolls, no extra mana needed

This far every item self found (not using a bot, so not much sleep in this ladder) except for the tal armour (not the full set), anni, torch, the 3 fire facets and 5 fire skillers. The rest can be found easily (well soj and ohm for cta a bit harder).

Skills (with this set and skillers without battle command ):
Fire: 40 to fireball and meteor, 38 firebolt, 32 fire mastery, 21 to rest , No points in hydra or enchant (merc is powerful enough ihmo for mf runs).
Lightning: 14 to static, teleport, telekinesis, no points in the rest.
Cold: 33 to frozen orb, 16 to cold mastery (next skill point goes here or a soj), and i put 1 to shiver armor (so teleing in dangerous places is a child's play) which means 14 to all but chililng armor .

FB damage: 12,6-13,7K (without the extra -30 enemy fire res and without bc)
Meteor: 26,3-27,3K (without the extra -30 enemy res res and without bc)
FO: 530-554
Not sure about the extra 15% fire dmg which the facets give, but I think it's not calculated in the character sheet. Correct me please if I'm wrong.

Life: 1352 (base without bc-bo), 2115 (with bc-bo)
Mana: 793, 1149 (no need for insight)
max resists
def: 1611, 3689 (shiver armor)
mf: 275-285 somewhere

merc : A2 nm deffensive merc (because of Lilith's minions, dolls, ghouls when teleing), with rand non eth cot, non eth reapers toll, stone - can be upgraded to forty + eth reapers if wanted (maybe I will do it if i find a Lo rune), or infinity if someone can afford it, or to be able to kill faster in 4-8 multiplayer games.

Overall: She's not perfect, but she is strong, has high survival rate, and she's cheeper. And don't forget the nice aura!

Before using spirit I went with stormshield and max block, but she became like a tank. Slower to tele, slower killing speed, but could easily tank monsters, so a god choice for hc imho.

BTW: The original guide was fun to read, had much good points. Great work!

This post was edited by korci on Nov 1 2010 08:45pm

Ah I see, the site I was using

http://diablo.wikia.com/wiki/TalRashasWrappings

Isn't really correct as it doesn't list 2 item/ 3 item/ 4 item bonuses on each item.


I guess I need to go back over all this O_o
I would like to do the math and actually find out what is better. If Tal is better then I'm more than willing to sell my items and put some more fg in my pocket while doing better in my MF runs.
That -15% fire resistance definitely needs to be looked into, if that is enough to justify the drop in + skill then I'd have to say the Tal set is better.
Do you know the math?


(and yes, the occy tele is frustrating me a lot)

This post was edited by Kp725 on Nov 1 2010 09:26pm

I'm testing both builds with a single player editor. I'll edit and post my findings in a few.

This is what I came up with using all perfect gear (including p anni/torch) Using no +fhr/fcr or skill charms of any kind.

Tal Rasha Wrappings:
Life: 1729
Mana: 649
Def: 1677
FCR: 95%
FHR: 80%

FB: 8593
M: 18K

Multiplied by the -15% fire resistance (I'm pretty sure this isn't right but I'm not a damn mathematician. 8593 x 0.15 / 18k x 0.15)
FB: 9882
M: 20.7k


Alt:
Life: 1286
Mana: 618
Def: 1920
FCR: 105%
FHR: 55%

FB: 10756
M: 22k



I'm still not sure where this extra life from the tal wrap comes into play when considering the 18% Red. Damage from alt. build, this is a job for theorycraft guys.
As far as my 2-3 runs on single player, the Tal build seems like I'm killing meph a tad bit faster but it's too small to tell considering the variables. But I do know neither is a huge jump from the other as far as dmg is concerned.
And when you take into account the fg used for each build, I'm going to have to go with Tals since you can use the saved fg to buy 5/5 jewels like Korci.

This post was edited by Kp725 on Nov 1 2010 11:17pm

Thanks for the data, it sure is usefull for the math.

Let's look at this another way.

Mephy has a resistance to fire 75% in hell dificulty. This means:

With alternate setup you have: 10756 - 75% = 10756 *(1-0,75) = 2689 dmg against him.
With Tal setup you have: 8593-(75-15)%= 8593-60% = 8593*(1-0,6) = 3437 dmg against him.

That is 27,8% extra dmg for the Tals vs Mephi.

with 1 fire facet inserted in armor (which can not be done in coh):
8593*1,05 - 8593*(1-(0,75-0,20))= 8593*1,05 - 8593*0,55 = 8593* (1,05-0,55) = 4296 dmg vs Mephy.

That is 59,78% extra dmg against him, which seems a lot...

Edit: I made an error in my calculations which now is corrected.

This post was edited by korci on Nov 2 2010 04:14am

Bravo. I was wondering how to work out those calcs, this should help me in the future.

Also, I was rechecking some things in my editor and I'm not sure but I ended up with 1 less point in FB on the Tal set, it should have read 10 FB/20 Mast (without any gear on). With this fixed the Tal FB goes up to 8831.
Which w/o the facet and using your math = 3533 dmg vs Meph

Well I lacked the raw data you gave me, so thanks for it.

That means with 1 facet it's: 4415 dmg vs Meph ( 64,2% extra dmg vs alternate setup). Insane.

With Fireball:
Alt build Meph dmg: 2689
Tal build Meph dmg (w/ 1 facet): 4415

Yeah... Tal set is definitely better. Even more when you consider the fg you save can go into skill gc and what not.


Additional comparisons:

Tal FB dmg: 8593 w/ -20% Fire resist (-5/5 in Armor) = 4415 dmg vs Meph
Alt FB dmg w/ 6 +1 fire skill GC: 14,584 dmg FB = 3646 dmg vs Meph

Wow. So apparently the additional +10 skills with the alt build (lvl43 FB vs lvl33) just cannot compare to the -20% resist given from Tal build w/ facet in armor, not even close really with Tal dmg being 82.5% higher real dmg output.

I guess it's settled, for this build Tal build is by far the best choice.

Ty for helping clear this up Korci


(just wondering though, without any +res charms you use, what is your resist in hell?)