Well, i'm glad we can keep this friendly I of course have nothing against you or your build. I just find that the reason your winning is because of YOU, not the build. The build is great also. I don't think I ever said it was "weak" In fact, didn't I say a few times I'd like to actually make it? Anyway, I think the only thing I ever said was it's weaker then u-gods bramble sin, which I do think it is. That's it...

I'm surprised you posted about that triangle thing with paladins. I guess paladins on east don't know how to Shift attack Basically, smite hits everything within a range of 3, so what paladins on West do, is just stand still and shift attack, moving their body direction in the direction you are coming from, and then passing through after the WW. Basically, they hit you EVERY single time you WW past them no matter what you do. Your triangle thing would do nothing, because all they have to be doing is facing you, stand still shift attacking, and they hit you every time man. Also, smite with most weapons has a range of 3, while claws are only 1. Once life tap triggers, your not going to have the power to bring their life down while their tapping you. I'm surprised you haven't ever dueled a paladin that knows how to shift attack. Every single one of them on West does that. It means that no matter what WW barbs or WW sins do to them, no matter what angle you attack, short wws', long ww's, nothing will avoid their hits, Nothing... Having said that, you'd lose if they can hit you every WW pass you make, because they get lots of life off tap, and you just keep losing life with every pass. Only thing I see your build being able to do, is back off, mind blast, stun lock, maybe teleport away, and wait until life tap is gone.

As for bramble sins vs casters. It is not at all how you described. The only character that can actually keep away from a bramble sins dragon flight and attack at the same time is a fire ball sorc. All other attacks require the caster to be close to you. Blizzard, orb, bone spirit, traps, anything but fireball will NOT hit you if your not close. An orb sorc for example that is staying off the screen won't hit me either. He has to actually come on my screen to be able to hit me. Same goes for all casters. It is true that bone necs and such can avoid being dragon flighted by simply teleporting far enough away that dragon flight won't hit. BUT, they can't hit from that far away either. I never had a problem dueling any casters with dragon flight.

Oh ya, to that guy that said dragon flight won't hit sorc's cause they have 75% block rate. All I have to say to that is WHAT??? what kind of sorc has 75% block rate? That would mean that it is a sorc designed for killing melee characters. A naked sorc should be able to kill melee characters dude. Sorc's are for killing other casters. Mainly, bone necro's, wind druids, and other sorc's. I will say, if a sorc has 75% block rate, they have fuked up their build big time. You'll NEVER see a sorc with more then 12% block rate in any clan duels, ever. The reason? Because there are no melee characters that can compete in clan duels, so why bother making a sorc with block? So basically, sorc's with 75% block rate don't know what their doing anyway, and would most likey suck really bad.

Still, the list of defeats as I see it for your build is as follows:

WW barbs
WW sins
Zealots
Smiters
Charged strike amazons (of course I mean without using any absorb)
Bone necro's (good clan duelers, not pubby noobs)
Plague amazons (hehe, that's my build, and as stupid as you think it sounds, trust me, you'd lose

So, that's quite a few builds your going to struggle with if you ask me. Any comments?

well, i duel vs Ai and Xe quite a bit, and I can say forsure that there is no way in hell Ai-pkgodz can compete in clan duels. He doesn't take his WW barb into the clan duels very often man. Only to fuck around. And Malice takes it in there to be different, and to add a massive Battle orders to his team, thats it man. He is the first to die in most 4 on 4's. Clan duels are full of 3 characters: Bone necro's, wind druids, and bliz sorc's. You do sometimes see bowazons, fire sorc's, even light sorc's. There is no cut and dried rule, but my point was, 95% of clan duels are those 3 characters. Why would you make a sorc with block rate to fight against the bottom 5% of other clans? It makes no sense. Especially since you can beat them without block rate anyway. And no, you don't get over 12% block rate with stormshield with base dex on a sorc, so please go check your calculator. I could be wrong, but isn't base dex with stormshield with sorc's given the usual gear about 8% block rate? Maybe 10? Max block is a huge mistake on a sorc. You would have NO LIFE.

About the smite shift attack. Finally, thank you. Somebody has seen smiters do this. I can't believe nobody on East has seen this. Every single half assed smiter on West never moves on inch during duels. IT's all stand still shift attacking, and they do hit you EVERY singly pass you make on them, no matter what kind of triangle shit your trying to do. Smite has MORE RANGE then assassin's WW. It's simple math. What's 3 -1? For those english majors out there, that's 2 That means, he can hit you when you can't hit him, but there is no senario where you can hit him and he can't hit you. That is why you need a massive venom damage WW sin to beat a godly smiter. No WW barbs can do it, because it's physical damage, and godly smiters own godly ww barbs everytime. Life tap = GG. Only super high venom damage WW assassins can beat godly smiters. This ghost varient couldn't do it, because no bramble, no damage claws, and different set up making it much weaker vs godly smiters.

beast/zerk barb wit high ar will own smiter
and my wwsin havent lost to any smiter, i only lost to a few v/t wit 4k+ life like miracle and leader of FL clan i think

I guess I stand corrected... Kinda 10-16% block is with min dex your saying. I thought it was 8-12. Anyway, the point was, that dude said sorc's have max block rate making dragon flight not hit very much, which started this whole debate. So 16%, who cares. They will still get hit a lot from dragon flight which was my only point on the sorc block issue.


WOAH, Koda you posted so much just now...

There isn't a smiter out there that is actually going to chase after you when your life tapped and charge you when your defensive WW'ing. Why do you assume your the only smart one, and everyone you duel is an idiot? You really think smiters don't know to stay away from you when your WW'ing away? Come on man, think about it. He has you tapped, you HAVE To run away. Now that he has full life again, or nearly full because he will hit you once before you get a chance to run away. Why would he waste what he gained by being an idiot and charging your back, or run smiting while your ww'ing. Ain't going to happen. If you run, he lets you. no problem, he can tap you again quickly when you come back

No, T-gods ISN'T allowed in all clan duels. Some yes, but not all. There are some dueling circles that do allow 1 absorb / max resist item, but t-gods has both light absorb, and max light resist, making it banned. You have to choose 1 or the other in some dueling circles. I seriously doubt your build could beat the top charged strike zons without t gods. Your damage is simply too low I feel. I know when I duel good charged strike zons with my bramble sin without t-gods, the duel is sometimes very close. I think if I dropped 800 or so damage, he would win. I think 800 damage is about what you would lose, give or take. Most likely you would lose more then that, but on average, about 800 is fair. without that extra damage, there going to kill you quite a bit.

WW barbs, sure, no elite ww barb loses to them, i'll give ya that. But at least bramble sins have a fighting chance if you pre buff your venom up to 5.7k damage or so and get your ar past 22k. Yours won't even get a good barb past 1/4 life I feel.

Your point about dragon flight being easy to avoid the range. Well, think about it. Of course any caster can teleport away from someone and NEVER get hit. BUT, they can't hit me either. It's a stale mate in that sense. Bone sprits and bone spears from off the screen would never hit a half decent dueler. Of course I know there coming, so I stay on the move. I'm not going to stand there like an idiot and eat spirits because I can't get onto his screen man. Same with fire balls and orbs. I'm positive i've never been fireballed or orb'd from off the screen.

Vs poison javazons, you can't hit enough to win. With 75% block rate, and max evades, I always stand perfectly still vs WW barbs and WW sins. They can't land enough hits to kill me before I kill them. Never happened, never will

One thing I think your overlooking also. When a bramble sin is fighting against most casters, he has BOS cast, not fade. Fade is for the DR only. I have max resists when BOS is cast, and of course vs bone necs, resists don't matter, so BOS is also cast. Sins run really fast with BOS cast. Fast enough to close the gap on most casters and get a dragon flight on them. I agree if someone is dueling everyone in fade mode, it would be hard to close the gap. But god damn assassins run fast with a high level BOS.

Your point about beating 2 bowazons at once. bleh, anyone can beat 2 on 1 if they're no good. My sin runs way faster then any bowazon, so closing the gap to get a dragon flight is Super easy. Bowazon vs WW sins isn't even a fair duel. Not worth wasting time on that one. Both builds should absolutely destory bowazons.

Last thing. You say teleport is amazing for using the shadow master bug right? Wrong actually. It only works if you use dragon flight and don't move after the flight. It will not work if you simply teleport near someone.

I'd also love to see you "tear" up bone necro's as you put it. Are you sure your talking about good ones? With all the absorb items you listed out that you use vs dueling each character, my guess is you mean pubbies. Clan bone necro's don't get torn apart by anyone, including WW sins. Ya you might be able to beat them sometimes, but tear them apart? Come on man, be realistic please. You don't have enough venom damage to get through their bone armor. Also, you don't use high damage claws, or 3/20/20's, so your physical damage is also quite low. Bottom line is, you would need to hit them many times to cut through bone armor and actually kill them before they kill you. I don't see it happening as often as you say it does. High venom damage is the only way to kill bone necro's, because it ignores the bone armor and actually hurts them quite a bit.

Anyway, I guess we have an impass here. I don't care, i'm jsut talking here, but maybe you could make a thread and actually take some challenges. I'm sure some people on east would love to give your WW sin a friendly go. It would be fun for you, and them I think. Everyone loves a good challenge right? Peace

Oh ya, just curious Kodachi. What is your WW damage? max damage on your chaos hand pls

This post was edited by wu-banger on Sep 27 2004 10:47pm

Koda, I want to make this clear also. I know when I type, it does tend to sound advisarial, but believe me it's not meant to be. I really do like your build, a lot. I just disagree on the dominance of it. The only point of contention we have is I think your damage is too low, making it hard to win duels, even though you have teleport on your side. I happen to think Dragon flight is the single greatest PVP skill in the game, so maybe that's why I'm so hung up on that part also. I am making one of these though, so you did inspire even your biggest critic