The 7 frame cast delay is the main reason i use WW over kick in most cases. For example, when vsing a bone necro, you may be lucky to get a good MB lock on a defensive one. Once you have the MB lock established, he will likey tele away quickly because he knows you are about to tele on him. With a quick tele + WW, you can transfer venom and open wounds damage quickly and POSSIBLY re-establish another MB lock. If the necro plays offensively, he might tele on your screen and spam spirits at you. In this case, if you were to try to trap him, he could easily tele away quickly. But if you were to try to kick him w/o traps, the 7frame cast delay on kick will make it very easy for him to outtank you. If, on the other hand, you were to simply MB once, tele in and do a quick triwhirl, you could easily outtank him because he will go through stunlock quickly, rendering him virtually paralyzed.

On the sorc note...The most common type of good sorc is ES/FB/Maxblock. Kicks are basically useless for these guys because you'll be missing 75% of the time. Even with stunlock, you'll be sitting there trying to kick them for 5 minutes before they are dead. WWing hits more often and has a better frame delay, so you can easily hit them while stunned.

Just some of my reasoning for not using kick in some situations. What I do like, however, is to use kick vs druids because then i have complete control over them. I lay a couple WOF, mb the crowd (usually 5 wolves + oak + the druid himself), and tele in and initiate a kick sequence. It lets me target the druid rather than wwing over the meatwall of summons.

First of all, it's impossible to convince people of the use of kicks unless you have played a kicker and know what you are doing. That's even said right in the guide. Kicks are hard to use, most people give up fast because they don't have the patience or the skill to master it. Of course 99% of bent would rather point and click with WW. But anybody who has kicker experience will tell you, kicks OWN ww in several instances. You just have to know what you're doing. If you don't, then by all means use WW. It's easy, and effective. The people who are saying kicks suck, clearly have never used them. And if they did, and still think they suck, then they didn't learn how to do it right, that's the bottom line. It's no offense, it's just the truth. Some characters are hard, and most people on bnet fall into the habit of using skills and characters that are very easy. Point and click is what they are looking for. This guide is for people who are going to take the time to learn how effective it is. Not get frustrated and quit once it doesn't work the first time out.

Most people here should just make a Ghost, forget the kicks. They won't know how to use kicks anyway. But it's still a great guide.



That's a rediculous statement. Pure smiters are easy for a good WW sin to beat. And Foh can be stacked with total ease, especially a v/t's foh that isn't even maxed out. V/t's and pure smiters only beat nub WW sins that don't know what the hell they are doing. If pure WW sins are losing to smiters, SLIT

us west non ladder *trae

This post was edited by Trae8 on Jan 18 2007 06:53pm

i agree - not that ez with kickers .. and most ppl just decide for a lame/BORING hdin or smiter
i got a kick/trap sin btw -> 12k light dmg, lvl20+adds venom, 3kicks 3/7/7

you're wrong. then again it seems like competent anti-melee smite is non-existant on west, at least thats the impression i got from their barbs.
barbs cant touch best smiters despite having vastly superior ww compared to sins, greater range, way more damage and _moving_ faster which is the most deciding factor.
sins on the other hand whirl slow as turtles, they do _pathetic_ damage and have less range. they also cant use %slow gear without losing even more damage (i.e. trangs->clegs etc). yes, they do have mindblast which makes telesmite harder to perform but good smiters will just mix desynch-in-their-face-smites with desynched telesmite that wont give you a chance to mb-lock them before they're on top of you.

of course i'm talking about the absolute cream-of-the-crop top smiters using correct gear. most other smiters and v/t:s are even easier to beat with sins than with barbs.
even speederländer admitted that he was unable to beat one v/t. one ladder v/t i might add...
v/t:s are nothing compared to dedicated anti-melee smiters. if they dont want to lose to wwbarbs/wwsins/whatever melee they wont. it's that simple.

edit: and yeah, ww will always be more effective than kicks when played by a machine ^^

This post was edited by GIFF on Jan 18 2007 09:32pm

well your not on west so I can't prove you wrong about the sin vs smiter argument. Unless you want to make me a WW sin on open, and make yourself a pure smiter on open, and duel me. I think i'd handily hand you your ass, but unless you want to put in the work to do it which I certainly don't, I guess we'll just agree to disagree

think the start kick is 5 frames.. cant remember

It's 7 frames. I still dislike kicks, and I disagree on your smiter statement as well.

This post was edited by Incompetence on Jan 19 2007 03:57am

Most of the time kicks won't hit at all, and the kickseq. is uninteruptable. so when your first kick misses with a full kick seq. almost any char wil break your stunlock and hit you hard. played 14 months with a pvp kicker/ww/stun and in my opinion hybrid is better.

This post was edited by gunske on Jan 19 2007 04:21am

im average smiterplayer at best so its pointless anyway. i play barb and ghost mainly, hammer and nec secondary.
point is that there is no way for wwbarbs who have 40% increased speed and 35% slow+doom to avoid competent telesmite. wwsins have no increased speed. they whirl like turtles. they can never get holy freeze, and have to struggle to get 35% slow from gear which means that they barely handicap the smiters attackspeed which makes it even easier to land telesmites. they have less range than barbs so they will hit even less, and even if they hit they do totally laughable damage. shadow is a no-no since it's lifetap-prone. but in the end it is the whirling speed that is the deciding factor, smiters with proper gear can even make barbs basically ww-in-place, wwsins are sitting ducks waiting to get hit by a smite that wont even be slowed...
smiters control the match just like vs wwbarbs, they can desynch around with medi and play def/off at will and there's nothing you can do about it. they can even defwhore with widow and never lose lol.

due to bad experiences i dont duel on open anymore btw, useless with the horrible lag + that most people have the habit of lying and talking alot of retarded garbage afterwards =/

Well, I guess I just don't understand why a WW sin player like yourself has any trouble with smiters of any type. Whether they are v/t's, smite / charers, telesmiters, makes no difference at all. Smite is easily overpowered by WW. They are both close range attacks, but one of them does way more damage (WW) Even if they chug antidotes and life tap casts, it's still a duel they can't win. Smiters would have to go balls out with andy's visage, antidotes, deaths gloves, the works to stand a chance vs a good WW sin.

BTW: I never said i'd be in my ghost set up 7.5k WW damage, 15k ar, 4k life, with 60% weapon block is too much for ANY smiter to handle period. Add in stun locking, and occasionally WW'ing away if life tap casts, it's a joke...