at the character level we're talking, we're at like a 85-90% (out of a 95% chance) chance to hit, so that itd isnt very relevant, nor does it apply to the bosses anyhow. Statistically, sure I agree with you.
You need your 2 hits to connect to come anywhere near the damage I do on my 1hit.

This post was edited by Master_Zappy on Nov 17 2011 11:23am

U Mentioned botd tm in ur build that = 6 frame whirlwind speed so yeah 2x grief hitting fastest wwbp and get 2x more hitchecks will do more dmg....

4th frame intial primary hand
6th frame primary + secondary
8th primary + secondary

then factor ds triggering on both weapons + cb and ow which are all calculated separately per hand... and ofc ITD vs lower mobs

If u insist on 2 hand at least use a weapon that hits bp i.e botd gpa/ ghost spear and great pollaxe...

This post was edited by halo273 on Nov 17 2011 02:36pm

the 2x hit checks < 1 hit check that does more than twice the dmg.

doesnt this depend on the ar?

crunch the numbers on lvl 85 mobs def vs 8k ar. even with the slight advance to grief's cth, it'll do less dmg.

but i agree with dual grief, i won't go all out my way to save up a whirl or two lol.

I acknowledged gpa/ghost a couple times and on anything put a titan, its superior for sure (I love gpa!).

What makes tm work when going titan despite looking at it on paper, is that between the two, you manage to bring your min/ average damage up high enough that what you hit dies. Those damage over time figures assumes you need lots of hit to kill the monster. When in play its 1-2 hits, which = 1 whirlwind click on your mouse button.
Your also not looking at the actual mechanics of whirlwind. Its not simply 4fpa vs 6fpa argument since my thundmaul is also hitting 4fpa some of the time during that whirl.

At the beginning of every whirl, there are two free hit checks whichs means a slow weapon is equal in speed to a fast weapon for the first two hits. Since you only need 1-2 hits to kill a monster your splitting hairs on the later and likely unneeded additional hits on the whirl cycle.

on the 1h grief grief, you literally always have to hit on both hands to have close to the same damage. Given that whirl is a moving attack that quickly takes you out of your targets tiles on that range 2 pb. There will be an appreciable amount of time in pvm your either missing (ar/def/block/misclick) or out of range. Without that guaranteed both hands hitting , it furthers skews the numbers to the damage focused 2h setup on all but end bosses, where the benefits of a triwhirl hitting more frequently in turn proc'ing more cb.

Thing about in terms of Hits instead of over time.


http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act4-undeadhorror.shtml

If you go to arreat and look at monster life while factoring general average physical resistances , you'll see that because of the threshold needed on a per hit basis per monster, that going titan with tm gives you a very high chance of mostly single shotting your enemies. You cant get faster then 1 click of ww to kill.


I think spectre did a good job of explaining some of the reasoning on 2h, so I'll c/p
http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=39599776&f=87




This post was edited by Master_Zappy on Nov 17 2011 03:16pm

Great discussion guys, only one problem. I don't know which barb to make now ? haha

did u miss something or cant seem to do basic maths?

duel griefs deal more dmg than a 2 hander....

grief pbs
431-435 so on 2x hitchecks 861-865

252-1390
ebotd 415 tm mule 1 hit check

general setup

hlords 35% ds
gores 15% cb /15% ds
cb based gloves (steel rends 10% cb)
raven + duel leech ring
guillemes face 15% ds /35% cb

duel grief setup = 85% ds /65% cb per hand
botd setup = 65% ds/65% cb in one hit

after ds applied

botd

506- 2780

vs

grief pbs

1722-1730

On initial observation TM has the highest MAX DMG now bear in mind this weapon does not hit the fastest wwbp completely missing the 4th frame whirlwind hitcheck... Also factor that it has less DS than the grief setup meaning grief has a higher chance to hit more consecutive ds shots on monsters.... Plus avg dmg is lower due to its very low minimum

And ofc now factor that the CB bonus is applied upto 2x in total since each hand can trigger for those who dont know what crushing blow is;

Crushing blow gives a chance of reducing your targets health by a certain amount in a single blow. Quote from the Arreat Summit:

-Default: 1/4th
-vs. Players: 1/10th
-vs. Hirelings: 1/10th
-vs. Champions, Uniques, Bosses: 1/8th
-with missile weapons, default: 1/8th
-with missile weapons, vs. Players: 1/20th
-with missile weapons, vs Hirelings: 1/20th
-with missile weapons, vs Champions, Uniques, Bosses: 1/16th

so in this case u deal 1/4 of dmg to low lvl monsters and 1/8 vs champions

Then ofc Ignore target defence which works against low monsters although not uniques and bosses... ofc it grants u 95% cth but yeah u can be blocked but so can a 2 hander

Now its upto you i can show ppl some basic maths but its common-sense to understand it

This post was edited by halo273 on Nov 17 2011 03:29pm

see my next post above

this can go on for ever but alot of ppl neglect the low minimum dmg + the fact ur recommending a weapon missing a hit-check?

perhaps you're a retard cuz we're talking about hc titan builds here. learn to read before blabbing like a tard, i know exactly how much dmg a grief does, and no- it's not made for a titan build. see sara's explanations cuz i cba to explain the whole damn thing over again.