TL;DR = BOLDED

So I got into a heated discussion the other day about the benefits of intelligence on a melee character (robe wearing non-the-less)

So, I thought I might try it

And then I realized...hey wait I already did
I made a melee mage a couple months ago for shits and giggles

It was probably my worst experience ever

And you will say ofc it was and what does that have to do with anything here

A Mage starts with a base int of 60

So that would basically be like me putting 40 points into int on my monk for the exact same result
Which was worse than my monk before and that was before the update, you follow me? Maybe not? Keep reading...

So now I have taken a Melee Mage and said it is equal to a Melee Character using Int for defense
And my conclusion is that a Melee Mage is no where near as good as a Pure Melee Character

So now your completely lost, let me show you

Mage (start) Mage (71)

Str: 20 63 (the rest of the point after Vita/Dex)
Dex: 50 130 (with charm)
Int: 60 60 (why add more on melee?)
Vita: 20 40 (same as monk - which I was at the time)
total= 150 points (I used 80 points for the lvl 71 example - 10 starter and 70 levels)

Monk (start) Monk (71)

str: 40 118 (every point but 2)
dex: 65 130 (with charm)
Int: 20 20 (I'm melee remember)
Vita: 40 40 (Don't need more)
Total = 165 points (I used 80 points for the lvl 71 example - 10 starter and 70 levels)

You might say well your monk had 15 more stat point, true - but would those 15 points make much difference to the mage?

On Monk my 55 dagger did: 407-712 (559.5 average)
On Mage my 55 dagger did: 302-528 (415 average)
On Mage with 15 extra stat point my 55 dagger would do: 330-578 (454 average)

The increase in damage would be 454/419 (or just under 10%)
Going with simple math that means that I would take 10% less damage over all (becuase i would kill 10% faster) and I would steal back 1.3% more life (I have 13% LS)

Not very significant in my opinion

When my Monk would do 559.5/454 = ~ 25% more damage (on top of the 10% increase already) and steal back 3.25% more life (on top of the 1.3% already)

Now the question is... is Int really that beneficial for a robed melee character?

If yes, provide proof

Just to clarify, there is a HUGE difference between a padded robe and a plate mail let alone a plate mail with 150+ ee

If not, what should I do?

What you can not say:

"Go caster" - That implies casters have an inherent advantage that will be dealt with shorty to balance the game (also I would rather quit that play caster)
"Buy better gear" - If a 241ee 55 dagger and 13 ls/63 dex is not good enough I must be doing something wrong (besides I am 15k in the hole after my last little spending spree )
"Play catacombs" - I started playing in the arena and I will play in the arena until it is deleted and life steal rendered completely ineffective!

This post was edited by DevilWithin17 on Feb 2 2009 07:07pm

I tested hybrid build and didnt worked for me (i use robes), so yeah pure melee> hybrid, unless u got like the best hybrid setup robewise i think.

Meh, I'm still a firm believer that for heavy armor wearing meleers I could make a well functioning hybrid..after feeders (Possibly with but it could be harder) E.g. Pally, Sammy etc

If I had a set of heal charms..which I do not...if I did i'd prove it.

I think a balance between 1k crits and about 250-300 heals is quite possible (on a budget where your MQ wep can't be above 130-150 EE)

Possibly more..depending on your weapon ofc.

However you would be a supplemental healer to a real healer at best..you would have to have 2x of these hybrids in a party to even stand a chance at =ing the effectiveness of a "good" cata healer @ 55+

This post was edited by TheNextBestThing on Feb 2 2009 07:14pm

This is exactly what I am thinking, I just can't think of a feasible option for robes characters becuase we take way to much damage
And if we stop attacking to heal we get caught in the healing trap
benefits are minimal, We heal 250, We get hit for 100, We hit them, We get hit for 100 (that's a net gain of 50 hp for 2 casts) - And that's a good heal and a easy mob...



Heavy armor yes because they have the benefit of a whole shitload of extra defense

but perhaps you decided to selectively ignore the part about the robes

And the part I said about Not playing cata....

This post was edited by DevilWithin17 on Feb 2 2009 07:19pm

Healing on a robed meleer is pointless if you intend to maintain good melee damage. It will never be a truly viable option..(Non cata) In catas it could work since your in the back anyway..but since you seem to dislike catas..you mine as well go pure melee and get all the damage you can because your going to need it.

and LS ofc

This post was edited by TheNextBestThing on Feb 3 2009 04:34am

As a rogue, I've tried both pure melee and am currently running a hybrid.
Yes the defense helps. BUT you can survive without it.
(Note: I'm using a rogue for the starting stat distribution and the availability of weapons to me, considering my limited fg. NOT for the increased defense.)

As to the difference of the +15 stats. Yes they make huge difference in the build. Particularly in the realm of defensive ability. (Explained later)

One of the factors you're ignoring is gear selection.

With 3 primary stats available to you (arguably 4 if you count heal mastery), it is *much* easier to accumulate a massive number of stats on a charm or armor than an equivalent pure melee item.

An example comparison:

Pure melee (My previous armor)
Rare tempered leather armor
Level Req: 45
Defense: 17 to 52

+50 Strength
+2% Life Steal

Cost: 300 fg
Sold at: 320 fg


Hybrid (My current armor)
Rare crystallized scale armor
Level Req: 45
Defense: 16 to 66

+28 Strength
+42 Intelligence

Cost: 250 fg


50 stats vs 70 stats (and it's cheaper).
This comparison holds at higher end gear even better. Although hybrid armor tends to be slightly rarer to find.


A second point:
Now as a hybrid build you've ignored a primary function of having a high int. DEFENSE.
The ability to heal is not the sole function of statting int. It is an important part, but far from the sole purpose.
You hard stat it for the added benefit of an increased mana pool, and the availability of low level pure melee gear.

The higher your intelligence (and dexterity) the more effective the stat is at providing a substantive defense versus it's respective damage type. (Elemental and Crits)
The defensive bonus from the two is linear. With the exception that you compare it to the mobs defense.

No, it's not an extremely cheap build. However, it's effectiveness compounds on itself as your gear gets better.
Similar to how Life Steal functions even better as your damage increases.
The primary advantage to this build, however, is the well roundedness of it - you WILL take less damage overall, by nullifying a large portion of casting damage.
This is an extremely important factor when considering chains.
As a pure melee, you take more damage during your chains, and rely solely on life steal to heal you.
The moment you run across a mob with high defense or life (or both) that casts, the damage adds up quickly ending your chain.
A heal charm is much more effective source of healing provided you have the stats and gear to back it up.


Additionally, with a Pure Melee build or Life Steal build you're pidgeonholed into relying on too few multiplying factors.
As an Intelligence based melee build you have more stats available to you AND more multipliers.

Also, it's arguable that your heal charm is just as valuable as your weapon in this build. If you slack on it, you will feel the effects.


Oh, read Wigwam's post on this subject. Try to understand the philosophy behind the build moreso than following a guide.
If I've missed anything, it's late. Point it out and I'll revisit this later to add/discuss/clarify.


Edit to add a response to your post:



Having sufficient damage, well rounded defense and effective heals is more powerful than having good damage.
This style of play allows you to complete longer chains and do Wells.

With ~700 fg value in gear - at 45-46 I've experienced a 100% success ratio with wells (around 30 wells so far) on a rogue.
I challenge you to do that with a pure melee rogue setup on a similar budget.


This post was edited by maori on Feb 3 2009 04:46am

One..your using a leather armor which has a good deal more defense than a robe, Two he doesn't intend to well (since this is probably reguarding monks and ninja etc not rogues and mages)

It may very well allow longer chains if you use it correctly while arenaing at low - mid levels..at higher levels thats a different story tbh

monsters hit harder...(especially in robes and not leather armors) and more frequently causing you to possibly end up heal locked and gaining very little ground.

and your doing less damage in order to gain that small bit of ground plus wasting time.

In a pure leveling scenario not welling...what I said will still ring true more than likely.

The advantage that could make a large difference in your favor is not healing during the chain..but after the chain is over on a lvl 1 arena mob to avoid any regen time making leveling quicker..however if you don't want to break your chain in order to heal up on a lvl 1 arena mob..more dmg > that ability to heal on a monk or ninja in a non welling situation.

This post was edited by TheNextBestThing on Feb 3 2009 05:18am

First off - the title of this thread is: Best Way To Build A Melee Character -> With A Catch - Can Only Wear Robes

This says nothing about not doing wells and neither did the OP. And I spent much of my post on climbing and chains anyway.



Solo play includes welling. It's a very important part of the game.
It's also highly worth considering if you're discussing limited budgets and/or choose to not build a caster weller.

I acknowledge I use leather. But the defense from leather is far from the deciding factor.
In fact the extra stats from Monk/Ninja are much more useful. However, I'm only at feeder and have limited fg.
And leather and scale hybrid gear is by FAR the cheapest our of the three classes (light/med/heavy) so I use it.

At high levels - you're only heal locked based on your int/healing ability. This has absolutely nothing to do with your melee abilities.
And as the multitude of mage climbs and wellers show - you can outheal the damage you take by significant amounts.

And as to your last point - you're ignoring one of the primary factors which make this build excel.
Healing in between chains is relatively ineffective as shrining low level items you find or get from a low level character is much quicker and easier.

Healing during the chain is the advantage you're looking for. You're looking to heal on the mobs that do relatively lower damage, not every mob or whenever you get low on life.
This means you can't just blitz through mobs until you're at 30% and heal up. You have to actively keep your health bar higher when you find that mob that less damage than usual.


What this does effectively:
Allows you a health bar of the amount of heals you can cast with a full mana bar, plus your regular health bar (relatively minimal).
To gain this health you must sacrifice a number of hits roughly equal to the number of heals you cast (plus or minus based on casting speed vs the mobs attack speed).
The key is choosing which hits your taking. Eating roughly 30-40 hits (based on mana pool) of low damage attacks is outweighed by the 10-15k+ life you'll gain from heals.

With 4050 mana you'll have 30 casts from a level 55 charm.

30 hits at ~100 each - 3,000
30 hits at ~200 each - 6,000

30 heals at ~415** each - 12,400

** Heal value with:
135 Int
30% Heal Mastery
140 EE heal charm in accessory slot

What this does effectively:
Allows you a health bar of the amount of heals you can cast with a full mana bar, plus your regular health bar (relatively minimal).
To gain this health you must sacrifice a number of hits roughly equal to the number of heals you cast (plus or minus based on casting speed vs the mobs attack speed).
The key is choosing which hits your taking. Eating roughly 30-40 hits (based on mana pool) of low damage attacks is outweighed by the 10-15k+ life you'll gain from heals.

With 4050 mana you'll have 30 casts from a level 55 charm.

30 hits at ~100 each - 3,000
30 hits at ~200 each - 6,000

30 heals at ~415** each - 12,400

** Heal value with:
135 Int
30% Heal Mastery
140 EE heal charm in accessory slot

That is where I think you are ignoring something..he is talking about a MELEE hybrid that can still heal effectivley NOT a casting rogue.

He isn't going to reach 415 heals each time on a character that is supposed to be meleeing in arena solo...It just isn't going to happen unless he has an INSANE heal charm...you can't really invest that many points into Int and still have an effective enough meleer to solo large chains and you can pretty much forget the heal mastery.

But I digress i'm getting tired of this discussion..if he attempts what your trying to say (as a meleeing arena soloer on a character like monk or ninja etc) he is going to fail pretty badly imo

Maybe not a entire character fail..but he won't level any quicker than an average monk or ninja more than likely (This is my own pure speculation though)

He should try it and let us know how it works I suppose but i'm still willing to bet it isn't any significant amount quicker than a normal melee monk or ninja climb.

I'll tell you right now I can't get : 135 Int / 35 HM w/o sacrificing a huge amount a melee ability
and on top of that 4k mana would require me to put basically every point from 1-65into int hurting my killing ability even more
further more if I try to heal I will surely be caught in a healing trap or gain very little HP at the cost of a lot of mana