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Jan 23 2013 09:33pm
Quote (Sanctumxz @ Jan 23 2013 06:12pm)
2.5/2.5 Mace/830dps Echo (str/chd/soc) + 570ar/80str/200vit/45res/2soc pants = 682k DPS 385k EHP Cost: 50-60M

2.2/2.86  Mace/Sword(ias/str/chd/soc) + 90 vit Inna's = 652k DPS 355K EHP Cost: 15-17M

2.5/2.5 Mace/930dps Echo (str/soc) + 570ar/80str/200vit/45res/2soc pants = 630k DPS 385k EHP Cost: 9-11M.  If you buy an Echo that pushes the total cost to 15-17M then you are only 10k DPS behind.


Okay, I'll spell it out for you one last time, then I'm done arguing over this because if you are still gungho for mace/sword afterwards, then by all means, do you.

You are comparing mace/ef to mace/sword with the only difference being 9% ias inna's pants. This means, you are sitting at 37-41% ias when you are in your mace/ef setup. This is a waste of ias and that's why your mace/ef setup is less dps per gold (and this is why I said earlier you can't compare the weapons in a vacuum, which you then proceeded to do). You are treating the echoing fury as an expensive stat stick, because you don't realize that the main benefit of ef isn't the str, socket, or chd, but the fact that its .2X aps affects both weapons. This allows you to achieve good breakpoints with fewer pieces of gear w/ ias. (And yes, any ias above a breakpoint is "wasted" because it doesn't affect ww or nado damage at all. It will only affect your bash/frenzy damage which accounts for probably 1% of your overall damage.)

This is important because in the 4 trifecta slots, gloves, ammy, and rings, you want to max out avg dmg (for jewelry), str, cc, chd, vit or AR (for gloves). Adding any amount of ias to those other stats makes the item extremely costly. Search for 30 avg dmg/60 str/4.5 cc/30 chd ring. You'll find a lot of decently priced rings under 5m. Add ias to that search and the cheapest one is 200m. The alternative is to go with cc/ias only and drop chd, but then that defeats the whole purpose of getting a cheap offhand with chd. This is the main difference between needing 33-35% ias and needing 46-50%. You can hit 33-35% ias without touching a single trifecta slot (mempo, inna's, lacunis, witching hour) or with ias in one trifecta piece if you use IK belt (mempo, inna's, lacunis, rare gloves). 46-50% requires six pieces of gear with ias, which means you're sacrificing a lot of chd or a lot of gold, both of which render your argument of a cheap, effective alternative moot.

There is a place for sword/dagger offhands, and that is true budget builds or starter builds. When I first started, I used Axe/Dagger for a while, at least 30-40 paragon levels, before I saved enough money. Then I upgraded to Mace/EF in one shot because of the flexibility it offered.
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Jan 23 2013 10:14pm
Quote (fentr @ Jan 23 2013 08:30pm)
Nice barb, that's not bad for 400m spent. You are definitely in the mid-high tier where upgrades are into the gg range and will cost hundreds of millions. Gotta ask yourself what your goals are, i.e. plvling, MFing, pvping, high mp ubers, and upgrade accordingly. Your rare ring could be better, it has elite avg dmg, but kind of underwhelming everywhere else. You should look into a 200+ vit IK chest which will free you up to drop vit elsewhere if you need to. Your innas pants could be better for sure, but str/vit or 180+ vit will definitely be 200m+. You look a little glass cannony to me, but as long as you're fine playing it its not a problem.


ill say higher str / vit ik belt also

:)
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Jan 24 2013 09:09am
Quote (fentr @ 23 Jan 2013 23:23)
If we look at the damage formula by Nubtro:



Lets test with 900 avg dmg mace, 800 avg dmg sword, 2500 str, 60% buffed cc without weapons master, and 450% CHD. Assume that all other gear is the same.

Mace: 0.2 * 900 * 26 * 1 * 0.7 * 5.5 = 18,018 dmg per tick on average
Sword: 0.2 * 800 * 26 * 1.15 * 0.6 * 5.5 = 15,787 dmg per tick on average

A difference of 2231 per tick, quite a difference, however assuming you are using Mace/EF and Sword/EF your sword will be at one higher bp than mace, which will make up some of the difference.  Lets see what happens if you are at max CC from gear (45, 6 helm, 10 ammy, 6 bracers, 1 pants, 12 rings, 10 gloves), buffed with ruthless, battle rage, and wotb, and overpower-killing spree, which would be 73% cc before weapons master.

Mace: 0.2 * 900 * 26 * 1 * 0.83 * 5.5 = 21,364
Sword: 0.2 * 800 * 26 * 1.15 * 0.73 * 5.5 = 19,208

The difference is slightly better at 2156.  You can keep shifting numbers around but I suspect with the super high chd levels of gg geared folks, 10% cc will translate into more dmg than 15% dmg.  Another thing to consider is 900 avg dmg mace is 1080 dps while an 800 avg dmg sword is 1120 so there could be a price difference in one way or the other.  If you took price into consideration the sword could possibly be better.  Remember that (assuming you use an EF in offhand) you gain a breakpoint on your sword to make up some of the dmg difference, however, for people who don't have that much cc from gear, more cc helps fury generation in addition to providing damage.


Really thankful on such a huge and extense reply.


What would be for you the best next steps in terms of upgrading my current barb?
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/SAMA-2776/hero/23749131

Some of the items are there for the sake of reaching MF cap (amu + ik boots + 20%mf withching hour) but gonna be removed as long as I reach cap MF due to leveling. Also, do not consider removing Leorics/HF rings.

thank you again.
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Jan 24 2013 02:24pm
Quote (SaMa @ Jan 24 2013 11:09am)
Really thankful on such a huge and extense reply.


What would be for you the best next steps in terms of upgrading my current barb?
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/SAMA-2776/hero/23749131

Some of the items are there for the sake of reaching MF cap (amu + ik boots + 20%mf withching hour) but gonna be removed as long as I reach cap MF due to leveling. Also, do not consider removing Leorics/HF rings.

thank you again.


Your build looks like an mp0 xp farming build. If that's the case, there's really no need to upgrade that further since you're 1 shotting everything on mp0 already. What to upgrade depends on what you plan on doing when you're not farming mp0. That will also depend on what your non-xp jewelry is.
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Jan 25 2013 10:15am
I'm in a bit of a jam with this guy now, been shufflin' gear and I'm not sure what to do from here because I've actually weakened him not being able to make up for certain items that will cost a ton. I want to use EF as my OH but I prefer the passive 10% crit but I picked up the sword for more ias, which ironically is my OH where EF would obviously do work on my IAS needs. I have a solid mace on my Templar... Any thoughts fellas :(

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/whitechapel-1493/hero/19310984
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Jan 25 2013 10:52am
Quote (Sikis @ Jan 25 2013 11:15am)
I'm in a bit of a jam with this guy now, been shufflin' gear and I'm not sure what to do from here because I've actually weakened him not being able to make up for certain items that will cost a ton. I want to use EF as my OH but I prefer the passive 10% crit but I picked up the sword for more ias, which ironically is my OH where EF would obviously do work on my IAS needs. I have a solid mace on my Templar... Any thoughts fellas :(

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/whitechapel-1493/hero/19310984


I would say get a EF atleast 0.23
Mace for main hand, one more ik piece for bounes.
Need more cc
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Jan 25 2013 11:07am
Quote (lansi @ Jan 25 2013 11:52am)
I would say get a EF atleast 0.23
Mace for main hand, one more ik piece for bounes.
Need more cc


Yep alright. Thanks :)
So who all pitches in most of the advice here, Lansi, Fentr and Tboner yea?
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Jan 25 2013 10:38pm
Quote (Sikis @ Jan 25 2013 12:07pm)
Yep alright. Thanks :)
So who all pitches in most of the advice here, Lansi, Fentr and Tboner yea?


nah
im not that great

Tboner and Fentr they have more detail advise
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Jan 26 2013 12:07am
Quote (lansi @ Jan 25 2013 09:38pm)
nah
im not that great

Tboner and Fentr they have more detail advise


lately ive been lazy with replies, you have been awesome :)
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Jan 26 2013 02:09am
Hello. I have been trying to fix my Hardcore Barbarian to be able to WW efficiently since a month or two. My problems are;

I can't keep wrath up more than 40 seconds (Haven't tried with my new 5 piece IK yet), I'd like to switch to dualwielding, I had the idea of getting a LS+STR+CD/Socket EF to my offhand with low dps (So I won't waste in all my gold). Not sure how efficient that'd EF offhand that I described, I'm not sure.

http://d3up.com/b/107258#gear
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/zmain-2515/hero/21904147

Any help will be appreciated. Ultimately I have the patience to farm for/snipe from ah the items. I'd love a direction or an end game like setup so I can atleast get close to it.

Thanks in advance.

Edit: I'm also using a scoundrel for soloing, which I mostly do with the barb, is templar for fury regen an option?

This post was edited by portakal on Jan 26 2013 02:10am
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