@Visaria about that LOH: Check http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=67007800&f=153. Haha sorry for advertising but I thought it might be interesting.

@Mad1Lee: I just have a lot of rings and bracers so it's easy to test, have rings with aps, with loh, etc. so can switch between stormcrow/mempo easily. I don't think top-end stormcrow is 30x cheaper these days (top end 9/6 int mempo is what, 3b? gl finding a 6cc perfect elite dmg, etc. stormcrow for less than 500mil on US - maybe the ratio is better for EU?). I have a meteor setup, just don't use it much b/c...I find sns more effective (edps).

This post was edited by ElijahBailey on Apr 8 2013 10:11am

Wow, I bought mine Storm for like 60 millions. http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Mad1Lee-2243/hero/195500 It lacks 1% of lighting damage which is ~600 dps or something. 9/6 mempos are 3-4 bills on EU so it's even more than 30 times difference sometimes. Meteor build is definitely more edps, it's just tricky to use. Key to overpowering your dps output is in how you use it. You got to place 3-5 winds and then just spam meteor button like a mad man, but after 4 seconds you gotta spam few more winds again and then spam meteors again - just mash that button. All this while holding diamond skin, blast, nova buttons. Of course fire passive helps reaching high dps. Last time I tested it it was 15-20% more edps than sns with Stretch Time (which takes me to 3,003 aps). Versus big packs I think it's like up to 50-60% more edps than sns.

@Drake22 add me on EU then - mad1lee#2243

Mad1Lee - No way on your edps measurements, I'm calling it. It's simply not true, 50% more edps than sns? That's a joke. SNS is already 7-8x multiplier without factoring in the free slot, depending on your ping and aps. Please don't speak as if NOBODY ELSE in the world knows how to play cm-meteor man I have about the same level of meteor items as I do with my cmwiz items and can gimp one or the other so it's equivalent sheet. It's not as if I never tested this, nor if this has never been tested by many many many cmwizzes. There are posts in the us wiz forums (prob in the eu ones too, I just haven't read them), meteor build guides, actually. Those wizzes concur that the meteor build is fun and flashy but ... more effective than sns? Nah.

First off, I concur that at singular points in time, you COULD be doing more damage with a meteor build than with standard sns, sure. Some people don't even think this to be the case but ok sure man. This is despite the fact that casting meteor takes up an attack frame, EB doesn't. MP10 ghom test - does meteor kill it faster? No, right? Ok how about MP10 Ghom/Rak test, you'll prob find this is also in favor of SNS, let me know if this is NOT the case for you! Ok so when can meteor actually do more damage? When there's a ton of whites on the screen? Sure. Since when does it take awhile to kill whites. Ok I may be overstating it a bit, if you meet an illusionist elite pack or a horde pack then yea I think meteor may be doing more.

I think my point is simple - over the course of an entire run - no chance. Standard SNS teleport allows you to get to packs quicker and starting doing damage quicker, you are doing much higher edps and clearing areas quicker. Please stop perpetuating the myth that a meteor build does more sustained and effective damage. We would allll be running that build if that were the case. In terms of looking good, there I agree with you 100% - the meteor build absolutely, positively looks like it does the most damage to everything. But it doesn't. Feel free to check your runs with a dps meter...

P.S. If not teleporting all the time, you could be using time warp in that free slot. Now your multiplier is 11x+. Meteor superior to that? Mmmmmm...
P.P.S. Nice stormcrow btw, is that price you mention the current price for it? if so, good job EU.

This post was edited by ElijahBailey on Apr 8 2013 12:35pm

@ElijahBailey

lolol, definitely a good investment if you'd like to ditch the BT pant, ammy, or SC option, or stack LoH alongside said items.

it all depends on your build, a ring like that is something you'd have to think about waaaay before buying all your other pieces. some builds allow you to stack dmg on your rings (like mine), other builds allow mitigation on jewelry, etc etc. i think your ring would be a nice option to drop SOMETHING for something else.

regardless, GLWS. my personal p/c on that ring is 450-500m


edit:
with regards to straight SNS vs ww/meteor... i believe a meteor build definitely requires a gear setup specifically towards it. maintaining the same gear config and simply switching skillsets, i made much more eDPS in full SNS vs meteor. i also noticed that my APoC procs were much less (i'm running 19 atm), and the permafreeze capability was hindered.

mp10 ghom kill in SNS: 1m17s
mp10 ghom kill in ww/meteor (fastest time recorded between both cold-blooded vs conflagration: 1m34s

proof is in the pudding my friends! GL HF

This post was edited by Visaria on Apr 8 2013 12:42pm

The thing with the meteor build that a lot of people neglect while they go gaga over the graphics is that you aren't freezing as much, which means the jailer/vortex mobs get to hinder you more and you will have to sidestep stacked molten/plagued/sentries/whatever more. The time you spend doing that is not negligible and this becomes measurable over the course of a run. Also, having to spend attack frames casting meteors detract from the damage you'd be doing normally using sns without meteor. Additionally, even though the 'conflagration' passive can be used for additional meteor damage, you then give up 'UA' so basically your chance of death are higher. Time spent dead is not efficient either and can seriously mess with your run-times.

For myself personally, if meteor was truly more efficient I'd use it - I mean hey, I built a barb just b/c it's more efficient than cmwiz at ubers, I built a monk b/c it's more efficient than any other class at collecting DE's, I'm all about efficiency.

@visaria: Dang, 500m? Man, there's no comparables on the AH! 450+ LOH! Better than any unity loh roll and it has 8%ias so other people using it won't be forced to get that aps on another item. Hehe will see, I'm selling it b/c I don't need it, although I did try running it with stormcrow as well, 1.6k LOH was hilarious.

This post was edited by ElijahBailey on Apr 8 2013 12:54pm

Well, I personally tested it like hundred times versus mp6-8 Azmodan. And I think Azmo and Ghom are not adequate tests since they require too much additional mitigation - obviously standard sns will be more comfortable since you are refreshing your diamond skin more. I tested slow time - time stretch with evocation (3,003 aps) versus meteor shower + conflagration (this English word drives me nuts). As you can see from my setup my CC/EHP and obviously APS are closer to high end wizards and one thing I lack is pure damage (which come with expensive high int/high crit damage items I can't afford yet) so testing is applicable to every sns wizard there. And yes, Meteor is more damage even versus 1 fat Azmo (same damage versus mp10 Ghom because I couldn't cast it so often, had to shift focus to winds more). With Stretch Time I got ~1,0x million edps, with meteor I got ~1,2 mill edps. Versus packs it's just total annihilation and it's hard to measure, but in crowded areas in keeps 2 I put 3-4 winds and just spam meteors like crazy trying not to forget to move from group to group so my skin/blast do damage too. About casting animation - as I described, you got to place winds first then spam as much meteors as you can in 4-5 seconds (that should be 10-12 casts) than you add 3-4 winds (that should take 1-3 seconds) and then start spamming meteors again. Only thing it conflicts is frost nova - but it's the same way with standard SNS - your nova casts interrupt winds casts and vice versa. I made a video back when apoc bug was present, I can try make new video if you like to see.

And yes, I sniped Storm for 60 millions, but usually you can get it for 70-100. I can't believe tom Storms are like 500 mill on US, wtf.

About that ring - cool piece, but I would price it around 300-400 if it was on EU.

@VISARIA if you test meteor sns vs standard sns with Mempo than obviously meteor sns won't work as intended after apoc bug. I found that even at 29 apoc I could benefit from 1 more apoc and maybe perfect meteor reduction on source.

Mmm wait. Are you using cold-blooded as a passive, frost nova-bone chill (evocation is not necessary) and slow time - time warp? Forget time stretch, if you want to pile on the dmg to be comparable use the yellow bubble. After all you're not at 3+ aps with meteor either so there's no need to use the worse rune. With time warp and bone chill you should be doing more than what you were doing before - what multipliers do that come out to?

For the stormcrow, I was just talking top end max elite dmg, max cc, elite dmg, decent loh etc. vs 9ias/6cc mempo's. The diff between these two types is not that great (6x or so, not 30x factor) in the US. I got mine for pretty cheap too but its impossible to get it at the same price today. For sc's with lower cc or lower elite dmg, they starts become much cheaper, same with non-maxed stat mempo though.

This post was edited by ElijahBailey on Apr 8 2013 03:34pm

Yes, with evocation for more effective damage actually and smoother freezing. I will test yellow bubble then. It's just I've geared myself so I can go to 3,003 aps with Time Stretch and next breakpoint is much more effective dps. It's weird that Storms are so much more expensive in US as I told you, you can fetch 8 light damage/4 elite/6cc/10 apoc/420+ LoH for 100 millions if you are patient. And 9 ias/ 6 cc int mempo is just not on the AH.

I will come back after testing yellow bubble versus time stretch versus meteor.

Btw...like what you mentioned in regards to mitigation - this is what I said before with meteor, your chances of death go up and you have to micro more. Your char has >88% mit, >54k life, >1:8 hp:ehp ratio so your char should have 0 problems killing mp10 ghom using standard sns or sns timewarp. Yet you're testing on mp6-8 azmodan instead b/c there is, say, a higher chance of dying vs ghom with meteor, right? Similarly, there is a greater chance of dying (less freeze) vs regular elites as well and you will be jailer/vortexed/plagued/molten/arcane/etc. more often. All of this adds up - if you compare actual timing of runs over a certain map and just do these many times, I think you will find that what I said is correct, SNS-wormhole gets it done quicker and with less deaths, that's effective dps.

i'm willing to bet time warp > stretch time.

just my guess


imo i'd only run slow time as a party buff. depending on what classes are playing would determine which rune to use (monks and hota barbs would benefit from stretch time for eDPS increases, whereas most anything else can benefit from 20% dmg from time warp)

This post was edited by Visaria on Apr 8 2013 03:40pm