The High-end Monk Discussion - Topic

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Jun 15 2012 05:28pm

Quote (irimi @ Jun 15 2012 06:13pm)

Dodge doesn't inherently have DR - only dodge from dex has DR. Given that everyone runs with >1k dex, and after 1k dexterity each point of dex gives the same amount of dodge without DRs (until you hit 8000 dex), it's really irrelevant here.

The idea is that if you DW you would want to use two fast weapons with LoH on them, so the regen from LoH outpaces the mitigation lost from having a shield and/or STI. That would ideally also free up other slots from having to have IAS on them so you can focus on, say, crit stacking or if you prefer, mitigation stacking elsewhere. That said, it could be argued that you don't really even need to use Guardian's Path to make Dual-Wielding an effective option.

Also worth mentioning: dodge from different sources stacks multiplicatively, which actually makes GP+Dex stacking+Mantra of Evasion that much more worthwhile.

Last but not least, I like the idea of dual-wielding just cause it's so much cooler.

Sorry, I don't really follow.
Dodge seems to DR no matter what you stack, I don't see how it gains 'multiplicatively'
For instance, I am 38.3% dodge; putting on Mantra of evasion (15%) puts me to 47.6.
At the same time, if I were to put on Guardian's path (15), I would go to 47.6%
That's only a 9.3% increase where tooltips says it should be 15%.
Using them both together puts me at 55.4%, for a gain of only 16.9% instead of 30%.

And doing so drops me to 3602 armor (54.56% damage reduction) from 69.79, so a loss of over 15.23% pure damage reduction versus 16.9% dodge.
The phrase 'dodge dodge splat' comes to mind.
No amount of dual wielding, fast weapons, IAS or life on hit will save you if you're being one shotted.

irimi

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#1072

Jun 15 2012 05:35pm

chance to dodge =

1 - ((1 - dodge stack on dex) x (1 - dodge from mantra) x (1 - dodge from GP))

assume 38.3 dodge from dex

chance to dodge =

1 - ((1 - .383) x (0.85) x (0.85)) =
1 - (0.617 x 0.85 x 0.85) = 55.42%

in this world, an increase of 100 dex will net you an increase of 1% dodge from dex

1 - ((1 - .393) x (0.85) x (0.85)) = 55.4%
1 - (0.607 x 0.85 x 0.85) = 56.14% dodge
--> net gain of 0.72% dodge per 100 dex

from here, another increase of 100 dex will net you an increase of 1% dodge from dex
1 - (0.597 x 0.85 x 0.85) = 56.86% dodge
--> net gain of 0.72% dodge per 100 dex

---------

your point re:armor/resists and damage spikiness is well-taken, of course. as with all things, you'll need to have enough damage mitigation to survive those "unlucky hits".

This post was edited by irimi on Jun 15 2012 05:42pm

Solamaroq

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#1073

Jun 15 2012 05:42pm

Quote (irimi @ Jun 15 2012 06:35pm)

chance to dodge =

1 - ((1 - dodge stack on dex) x (1 - dodge from mantra) x (1 - dodge from GP))

assume 38.3 dodge from dex

chance to dodge =

1 - ((1 - .383) x (0.85) x (0.85)) = 55.4%

1 - (0.617 x 0.85 x 0.85) = 55.42%

in this world, an increase of 100 dex will net you an increase of 1% dodge from dex

1 - ((1 - .393) x (0.85) x (0.85)) = 55.4%
1 - (0.607 x 0.85 x 0.85) = 56.14% dodge
--> net gain of 0.72% dodge

from here, another increase of 100 dex will net you an increase of 1% dodge from dex
1 - (0.597 x 0.85 x 0.85) = 56.86% dodge
--> net gain of 0.72% dodge

Thanks for the math, but doesn't really say why you wouldn't gain 15% dodge from either ability nor how it would gain 'multiplicatively'
regardless as I made in my last point, even 30% dodge to give up a huge amount of actual flat damage reduction from all sources via armor doesn't seem worth it.

Sena

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#1074

Jun 15 2012 05:44pm

Quote (irimi @ Jun 15 2012 07:35pm)

why not just stack crit dmg and use that passive sixth sense?

irimi

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#1075

Jun 15 2012 05:44pm

Quote (Solamaroq @ Jun 15 2012 04:42pm)

The multiplicative gain is coming from Mantra of Evasion and Guardian's Path. You can see that if you removed one of those, your dodge gained per dex will decrease rather than increase (or if they were additive - stay the same).

The thing about Armor/Resists is that you actually DO hit diminishing returns - and quite early on I might add. It's theoretically impossible to get 100% reduction (though who cares if you have 99.999999% reduction vs 100% reduction anyway?), whereas it is actually theoretically possible to get 100% dodge (at 8000 dex).

That said, this is all pie-in-the-sky theorycrafting.

In practice, it could be true that armor/mitigation is much more valuable/realistic than dodge. I imagine that DW-monks probably have to rely on Vit a little more to soak up the extra damage, while having enough IAS and LoH to more than make up for that.

This post was edited by irimi on Jun 15 2012 05:49pm

Solamaroq

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#1076

Jun 15 2012 06:12pm

I just feel that by the time you have enough gear (bigger HP pool, more Life on hit+ias, etc) to make dual-wielding 'effective', it's still probably not going to be 'more effective' than using a shield; not to mention finding 2 1 handers with good enough stats. The same could be said for using a 2 hander, though.

Though it's probably worth mentioning that once in amazing gear (like 80k+ hp) that 2x LOH weapons w/Life on spirit spent and massive amounts of IAS would be a lot of self-healing, but damage overall would probably feel way spikier than just using standard equipment and LOH steadily keeping you up.

Personally I have 0 LOH and 0 LPSS and still have no issues keeping myself up. The damage reduction from armor / resists combined is to the point where I usually drop Resolve and take Transcendance. I have a lot of IAS though so my spirit generation is pretty high.

irimi

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#1077

Jun 15 2012 06:20pm

DW is not supposed to be done for the sake of survivability but for DPS. Dodge and LoH along with a healthy amount of mitigation makes it viable, but it's not the reason for doing so.

In fact, many people have already posted in this thread demonstrating that you don't actually need a ton of mitigation to make a Dodge+DPS-oriented DW build work.

This post was edited by irimi on Jun 15 2012 06:23pm

xxxguzxxx

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#1078

Jun 15 2012 06:33pm

hey guys im sorry before i posted the wrong pic for my char and didnt notice til someone said something and i got a few items since then now the guy before said i may need some more hp what you think now

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/xxxguzxxx/Screenshot050.jpg[/IMG]

Veranor2

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#1079

Jun 15 2012 09:50pm

Quote (irimi @ Jun 15 2012 07:20pm)

I would be one of those. And I will say the difference between 35% dodge and 55% dodge in A2 inferno is visible, despite it being a luck of the draw type situation. Irimi is 100% right though, when you are unlucky, you have to be able to take at least 1-2 hits, and your regen must compensate accordingly. Otherwise its pointless to DW.

Veranor2

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#1080

Jun 15 2012 09:52pm

Quote (Mizter @ Jun 15 2012 06:44pm)

why not just stack crit dmg and use that passive sixth sense?

Stacking crit damage will not help dodge using sixth sense. That's based on crit chance only. I suppose you could stack crit chance, but I feel like you will end up sacrificing too much to get it, and the items that have the other stats you need would likely be astronomical in price. I tried investigating this a while back. For all res (and an additional res if ur stacking OWE), dex, maybe vita, and crit chance, it was outrageous.

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