Can you explain why you would recommend 2 scoops of whey as a post-workout protocol? Personally, I know there are far better options.

rather scattered supp intake.. never seen ne thing like that b4..

This post was edited by knoxri on Apr 1 2009 09:57am

He requires active-aggressive shoulder repair and rehabilitation.

here is what to do.


1. Ice the shoulder at least 4 times a day for 20 minutes each time.

2. Take 1 anti-inflammatory (aspirin basically) if pain becomes severe.

3. Perform the specific stretching routine twice a day as mentioned below

Stretch the shoulder across the body, pulling from behind the shoulder blade, hold for 10 seconds. Next grab a wall with that hand with the arm away from your torso (like you are holding your arm out to make a turn) and hold stretch for 10 seconds. The you will make 20 full windmill rotations with that arm clock-wise, then counter-clockwise for a total of 40 rotations.


4. Do Bye-Bye's with a light dumbbell. Hold the arm out at a 90 degree angle with the forearm and hand straight up (looking like you are pitching a baseball). Then, while holding a dumbbell, bring the forearm and hand down (facing the floor), using the rotator cuff only, keeping the arm at a 90 degree angle the whole time, and then bring the forearm and hand back up. Perform this exercise every other day for at least 5 sets of 15-20 reps. If you feel pain during the sets, STOP IMMEDIATELY - and go lighter. If you can not perform this movement at all without pain...you need to see step 5.

5. See a chiropractor. This is the safest and usually most effective alternative to surgery. With constant therapy, a chiropractor might be able to set things right with your shoulder with minimal pain and expense.

NOTE:

DO NOT DO REGULAR WORKOUTS AT THE GYM! THIS WILL AGGRAVATE THE SHOULDER! Stick to cardio ONLY, with exception to the shoulder exercise and stretches I outlined.

Hope everything works out! Remember you must follow everything as I have mentioned it here.

Whey is the fastest absorbing protein you can introduce to your body right after a workout. In conjunction with about 10-20g simple sugar (non-cutting cycles) - insulin will spike, resulting is massive protein and nutrient synthesis to the muscle groups, highly utilizing this very pure and fast acting form of protein. No whole food can come close to immediate post-workout muscle nutrition.

However, it doesn't stop there. You need to eat a Whole food meal within the next hour for optimal results. The 2 scoops of whey (lets assume we are referring to 40g protein) - will provide all the nutrients to the muscle groups that they need when they are most susceptible to protein and nutrient uptake (remember, time is of the essence!!!) However, after the muscles receive all of that whey (which 99.9% of it will be used immediately), you are going to need whole food to continue keeping the metabolism up and providing your body essential nutrients (including slower acting protein for amino acid profiling).

Now...do not forget that the whey must be mixed with water or juice (if not on a strict cutting cycle) - if you mix it with milk, the whey absorbs slowly, and defeats its purpose.


As far as you saying you personally know there are "far better options" please share with us what you feel is "far better" and be sure to explain why you feel that way along with any research you might have.


As for knoxri - if you think that's a scattered supp intake, let me give you an average day of supps so you can see how intense it gets for me and some of my more advanced clients and training partners.


Wake up - take 2 kre-alkalyn with 20 oz water
10 minutes later - take 3 jet-fuel with 20 oz water
30 minutes later - eat breakfast with 1 multivitamin, 1 vitamin c (1g), 1 chromium, 1 ginko, 3 omega 3-6-9, joint support mix (8 pills), 1 Digestive Enzymes complex (total 16 pills with breakfast)
1 hour later - 2g BCAA's
1 hour later - meal 2, 3 omega-3-6-9, 1 vitamin C
1 hour later - 2g BCAA's
1 hour later - meal 3, 3 omega-3-6-9, 1 vitamin C
1 hour later - 2g bcaa's
1 hour later - meal 4, 3 omega-3-6-9, 1 vitamin C
1 hour later - 2g bcaa's
1 hour later - Pre-workout supps - 2 kre-alkalyn with 20 oz water
10 minutes later - take 5g arginine/ornithine (5 capsules)
10 minutes later - take 2g BCAA's
45 minutes later - take 2g BCAA's
45 minutes later - take 2g BCAA's
45 minutes later - take 2g BCAA's
45 minutes later - take 2g BCAA's
End Workout - take 2g BCAA's, 1 vitamin C, 5g glutamine (powder), 40-50g 100% whey isolate shake, 1 multivitamin
1 hour later - meal 5, 3 omega 3-6-9, 1 vitamin C
1 hour later - 2g bcaa's
1 hour later - meal 6 (final meal, cottage cheese before bed).
15 minutes later - pre-bedtime supps - 5g arginine/ornithine, 6 HMB, 3 dopa, 1 melatonin, 4g bcaa's, 2 GABA (total 25 pills)


TOTAL PILLS FOR THE DAY - 115 pills - (rough price $15 / day)


That is my average day on cutting...bulking cycle changes somewhat, but number of pills remains roughly the same.

Generally this plan is used for cutting from 9% bf to 5% bf - black coffee is also drank throughout the day intermittently.



So if it seems like taking a few bcaa's during a workout and some creatine and a multi is scattered....now you can see how it is for those who think/sleep/breathe this lifestyle

Mega dosing BCAA has been popularized by Charles Poliquin I believe. However, I am going to respectfully disagree with some of the things you are saying especially in regards to post-workout.

The post-workout "window" is extremely important as I am sure you and I can both agree, but 2 scoops of whey isolate is not going to cut it. You mention "10-20g simple sugar (non-cutting cycles) - insulin will spike" yet what kind of insulin spike are you going to have with 10g of simple sugar? After a workout, the MOST important thing to consider to replenishing your muscle gylcogen and taking advantage of the insulin spike. This requires a lot of sugar. I'm curious as to where you picked up the idea that 2 scoops of whey is a recommended post-workout drink?

Let me give you an example of what I would recommend post-workout (not including pre and peri which would include similar mixes) for someone who is bulking.

80g waxy maize (malltodex can be used as well)
15g BCAA
5g L-Leucine
Creatine
L-Taurine

Follow this 20 minutes later with 25g carbs/scoop of whey isolate

Follow this an hour later with a meal

Just some things to consider.


Even when someone is cutting, I would skimp the least on the post-workout as far as carbs go. I'd recommend them to not have any peri-workout shakes, however.

Sorry if this has been posted before, But I'm really eager on how to PEAK my biceps, like the peak where if your arm is at your side, and your reaching towards the floor sorta speak, your arm has a ball, obv not like when your curling it up and flexing it, but a nice curl to it that really looks like a mean bicep

I've heard to twist and really FLEX at the top of your curls, is this the only way??

Ok lets get some things straight.

First of all, the supplement, nutrition, and bodybuilding business (especially the major publications) are constant contradictions of themselves. I am currently at the University of Miami Medical School studying general surgery, followed by a residency in trauma surgery. My BS degree is in nutrition and biology - I have been a trainer for many years. I have studied all of these things from not only a personal level, but from the scientific level as well.

Until you truly are able to understand things from more than just a "muscle & fitness" or "my friend at the gym" or "what Arnold recommends.." stand point...everything is just a theory.


Here is the scientific proof.


10-20g simple sugar (if the body has been fasting for at least 3 hours - which is generally the case when you just get done working out...if it isn't the case, you've done something wrong) is MORE than adequate to spike insulin levels in the body enough to cause an anabolic reaction with the incoming protein and other macro nutrient matrix.

The misconception that Dextrose in the 50-100g margin has been a marketing ploy for companies selling post-workout drinks since the 1980s. If you don't believe me, get a glucometer and test your blood sugar post-workout without eating/drinking anything other than water. Then check it 15-20 minutes after taking 10-20g of simple sugar. Now compare this to taking 80g dextrose. You will find that although 80g does in fact grant a higher sugar - exponetially it is very slight, and thus virtually useless by comparison.

10g is suitable for a person under 150lbs, 15g is suitable for 150-175, and 20g is suitable for 175-200. Figure 5g per every 25 lbs of bodyweight after that.


As far as BCAA's go - stacking 15g of bcaa's right after a workout is scientifically and realistically useless. If you are consuming capsules, it takes roughly 15 minutes for them to work - which means that the 2-3 hours you were at the gym, your body was catabolizing muscle as well as fat during the workout. You want to AVOID THIS AT ALL COSTS!

In addition, no more than 2-4g per 45 minutes is able to be metabolized properly by the body even during times of extreme stress. If you give the body 45g bcaa's, it will use them over the course of roughly 2 hours and 15 minutes - which can potentially work pre-workout...but has been shown to not be as effective as gradual BCAA's loading and intake.

Post workout creatine is optional depending on the kind of creatine you take. kre-alkalyn for instance must be taken PRE-workout...whereas monohydrate must be post. Obviously taking your creatine with grape juice (very high glycemic rating and easily fulfilling the 20g simple sugars) after a workout is the most desirable action if using monohydrate or micronized monohydrate.



Now, here is the strict miscalculation with post-workout shakes, protein, and recovery.


25g protein / 2 hours is what an average 170lb male requires for optimal anabolic synthesis. However, there are 3 times during the day where this is not true.

1. Morning
2. Post-workout
3. Pre-bedtime


Here is why.


1. Morning, after you first wake up, your body requires immediate fast acting protein as part of the macronutrients to stop catabolism that has set in during the night (25g whey) - then the body also needs at least another 25g of slower acting protein to provide it enough reserve aminos to continue anabolism during the next 2-3 hours (any white meat will do fine, or a casein shake) - the simplest way to cheat this is to take 1 scoop of muscle milk and 1 scoop of 100% whey isolate with a handful of nuts and piece of cheese or approx 4 oz whole milk.

2. Post workout - Here is the part we need to discuss the most. When the body is at rest or low/moderate activity, the body only utilizes approximately 25g protein per 2 hours. HOWEVER, right after a workout, when your body has been pushed beyond its normal physical limits, muscle fibers are torn apart, blood flow is maximized, thermogenesis has set forth throughout your entire body, and testosterone production begins rapidly changing - there is a SEVERE need for protein to be immediately introduced into starved muscle groups and for amino breakdown for essential body functions. Depending on bodyweight and duration/intensity of the workout, a person can require anywhere from 30g to 150g protein post workout. The most sucessful bodybuilders know this, but keep their secret away from musclemag, m&f, etc.

While training one day with a former Mr. Florida, we got into the topic of post-workout nutrition. His "secret" was drinking a 30g isolate shake, following up with a 1/2 lb chicken breast, and a 1/2 lb steak. The idea here was to get all 3 forms of protein, fast/medium/slow acting in order to properly fuel the body after the cataclysm from working out so intensely (we're talking 100-120 sets in 3 hours). I personally don't eat that after a workout, but my actual post-workout nutrition is very similar and has got me the way I am in such a relatively short period of time.

3. Pre-Bedtime - Right before bed, your body will require the initial 25g of protein to satify the current 2hour requirements....but will also need BCAA's and casein protein to sustain anabolism throughout the night. 4g bcaa's and another 25-30g casein are optimal. If you wake up in the middle of the night, take more bcaa's. I leave the bottle on my nightstand with a bottle of water.



Lastly...


When cutting - ( I don't know if you've ever done pre-contest prep before) - but there is a 2 week window...where literally no carbohydrates...NONE...go into the body. No vegetables, no fruits, no grains, NOTHING. Not one single gram. In addition, workouts are performed faster, with shorter rest periods (instead of 12 seconds 6 seconds usually) - and cardio is performed 2-3x a day. Protein is consumed in massive amounts with tons of fat from olive oil, heavy cream and animal fats. (EFA's are taken as well)

Finally at the end of this 0-carb cutting phase - the result is usually 7-8% down to 4-5% or 6-7% down to 3-4%. The next 24-48 hours before the contest, carbohydrates are re-introduced slowly (VERY SLOWLY) in the form of complex easily digested carbs like cream of wheat and oats. Finally, hours before competition, sugar starts being introduced to cause a ridiculous pump that will make your skin feel like it's going to explode. I forgot to mention that gradual dehydration also begins 2 days prior...with only coffee to drink the day of. (distilled water 2 weeks prior).

Anyway this is used to illustrate that - no - during cutting phases, simple sugar post workout is unacceptable.

The only time it's okay, if we are discussing a person who is gradually losing fat (from say 15% to 10%). But for professionals on a true cutting-cycle...no sugar is permitted, even post workout. You have 8 solid months to bulk...there are only 4 months to get full contest prep done.


Ok so there you have it. My massive diatribe.

If you still disagree or don't believe me, that's fine. A lot of people thought the world was flat for centuries if not more. Everything I have posted here is from over a decade of solid work, research, and massive amounts of man-hours into actually doing, as well as physically researching in a lab setting for my degree. I have spent more time on the scientific portion of bodybuilding and nutrition in the last year, than most people probably have in a lifetime.

So in all honesty - if you come here for help, you shall have it. If you come here to argue, and try to show-off and attempt to undermine me and my 100% free service....it is not appreciated - especially not via forum post (send a PM instead).

Sorry but I have truly had enough of people coming in this thread and trying to take over with their own unfounded ideas (that can mostly be found in typical fitness magazines or throughout the web) - I put enough time into doing so much for so many people with my own time and research...combined with my real life activities...that I hardly have a moment to myself.

Anyway, take care.

To work the peak you have to work that part of the pump.

In order to do this - try the following exercises:


High cable Curls (twist and hold the pump for 2 seconds with each rep)

EZ-Bar curl 21's

single arm dumbbell preacher curls with a twist at the end (away from your body) followed by a double pump



Do these in addition to your normal bicep routine...pay a lot of attention to the pump and the peak...when you see and feel the bicep start to reach its plateau....move it a bit more and pump it up until failure.

nice post.

one of the best rants i've ever read.

he sure set that guy straight lol..

but i have a question

you say when cutting you intake no carbs what so ever, but wouldn't this be hard on the digestive system with no intake of fiber?

or when your body gets in great shape ,can it handle this?