187 cm and 80 kg. Goal is to add musclemass while getting more lean.

I've been on IF for about 4 months now and have no noticeable muscle loss, and a substantial amount of fat loss.

All of Martins clients are doing exceptional. The research is there to back the claims made by Martin and Lyle.

The peptide requirements are why bcaa's before heavy lifting are a pretty crucial part of IF......why would your body resort to muscle tissue when you should still have aminos floating around if you have a substantial meal at night...and then bcaa's on top of that?

Bout to be another boxa vs raynor argument

I'm not in the mood to battle on IF for the millionth time.

Just wanted to add that it's not garbage and has worked for many people on this forum.

First of all I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe you have had "no noticeable muscle loss" on cutting using IF.

Secondly, to say "all of martins clients are doing exceptional" reeks of absolute promotionalism. Do you know all of his clients personally? Obviously not.

Next I have mentioned many times that there are 3 major body types, and a vast number of combinations thereof (based on % of each). Some people respond to certain things more than others...however as a rule of thumb, IF is not even REMOTELY close to the best way to cut.

I want you to stop and think for a minute....can you name one major bodybuilder or powerlifter who's cutting phase is IF? Absolutely not. Blame steroids all you want, the truth of the matter is for pure muscle sparing, nothing is finer than a solid CKD.

Now to continue on...do you realize how quickly your body rips through BCAA's during intense exercise? Do you also realize that in order for your body to repair muscle tissue PWO you require a HUGE amount of glycogen and peptides? Simple BCAA's are NOT enough! They are good to prevent atrophy during intense activity when glycogen is already depleted - however they will not spare your muscles from catabolism during 16-18 hr fasts.

You can try to rationalize it however you want but the point is still the same - if you want to lose bf AND muscle - you can go ahead and dabble with your IF garbage. If you want to maintain as much muscle as possible, CKD is by far the most efficient.


The basic biology is here:

1. Your body requires semi-frequent nutrition in order to maintain general anabolism. The absence of anabolism is catabolism. If you are catabolic for too long the body will resort to breaking down muscle as energy as well as fat. To prevent this, one must have extremely rigorous workouts, and plan nutrition accordingly as to maximize fat losses and minimize muscle losses. In addition, your body WILL go into fasting mode over night but only for a short while if you time your casein intake properly. Instead of an 8-10 hour fast, you would be only doing a true 3-4 hour fast. Muscle losses are thus heavily minimized.

2. Fasting for extended periods of time (without BCAA's) will result in atrophy - 100% scientific proof here.

3. Fasting is no longer fasting when you intake a constant stream of BCAA's....to be quite honest you are doing the same thing by superdosing BCAA's as you would just drinking a few shakes. Of course the shakes would be much cheaper. Calories from the shake vs the bcaa's? Obviously the shakes contain more but they are also more complete and thus will provide your body with a more complete peptide surplus.


I will let you think of one last thing...the most major studies involving IF have been conducted over the last 7-8 years. In that time, it has been found that traditional calorie restricted diets VS intermittent fasting diets yielded virtually the same fat loss, cortisol levels, blood pressure, glucose levels, etc. The studies can be found at many online medical journals - however one thing they all seemed to notice was that the IF groups had less overall strength and greater muscle depletion VS the group that ate frequently but overall reduced total calories.

If intermittent fasting was really the way to go...don't you think Jay Cutler, Markus Ruhl, Ronnie Coleman, Dexter Jackson, Mariusz Pudzianowski, Derek Poundstone, Svend Karlson, etc etc etc would all be doing it for cutting? Well they aren't.

Steroids or not, CKD is superior for rapid cutting with muscle sparing.


Let's not keep cluttering the thread with reply after reply. No more comment posts offering expertise here. Please restrict this sticky to questions and requests for advice only.

Thank you!


EDIT:

in addition Anthony Colpo has an article on exactly this that I just googled immediately after posting my reply:

http://anthonycolpo.com/?p=551

This post was edited by SKCRaynor on Sep 4 2011 06:05pm

hey there...please take a look here


http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=21269614&f=60&p=335896241
Bulking Diet, workout, and supplement guide


That should cover everything. You can replace the protein food in there such as chicken, beef, eggs etc. with the protein you like.

Why are all of your examples of guys not doing IF who "would be if it was the best way" athletes that are in an upper elite tier of athlete that doesn't apply to 99.9% of the population and who are also on gear?

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/un/vegetablegreens.html

http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=10934825

how do these to compare? which is better

Hey raynor,

bought that cytogainer stuff that you recommended and been taking 4 scoops a day...its disgustingly sweet (i got vanilla) and i have to put 16 oz water with every 2 scoops to get it to dissolve lol but i like it besides that so thanks for that recommendation

anyways i was wondering if you could give me a rough calorie estimate that i would need each day

i am a hardgainer 5'6 126 lbs atm and im aiming to bulk to around 140-150

also, midway through june when i started working out more seriously i was at 117 pounds - how much of the 9 pounds would u guesstimate is fat?

lastly, im thinking about adding another day to my split.....my split atm is

Mon: Back + Bi
Tues: Rest
Weds: Chest/tri
Thurs: Rest
Fri: Legs
Sat: Shoulders/traps
Sun: Rest

i was thinking of having bi's on monday and back on tuesday and cut out the tuesday rest day..thoughts?

Thanks!

It doesn't matter if you find it hard to believe lmao.....my strength has gone up and body fat has gone down and muscle has stayed the same or grown since starting.

I never said it is the best way to cut, I said it's not garbage. Simple macro manipulation isn't anything new......that's what IF is with morning fasting/fasted training thrown in. Can you show me a study that shows substantial muscle loss happening within a short amount of time? Like a 17 hour fast? I'd love to see them.

Martins clients usually construct blogs to show their progress so you can go look up whoever you want and question them for yourself if you want to.

NOBODY here should be comparing ANYTHING they are doing to ANY major bodybuilder or powerlifter, why you would use them as NON-IF users is beyond me.

If you would like to send me some traditional calorie restricting superiority research let me know.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21410865?dopt=Abstract

That's clearly supportive of IF'ing over traditional calorie restriction, and it's pretty recent.

2. Fasting for extended periods of time (without bcaa's) will result in atrophy -

Of the studies I've seen, muscle wasting did not happen until the 3 days mark....lol.

"Only in prolonged fasting does protein catabolism become an issue. This happens when stored liver glycogen becomes depleted. In order to maintain blood glucose, conversion of amino acids into glucose must occur (DNG: de novo glucogenesis). This happens gradually and if amino acids are not available from food, protein must be taken from bodily stores such as muscle. Cahill looked at the contribution of amino acids to DNG after a 100 gram glucose load. He found that amino acids from muscle contributed 50% to glucose maintenance after 16 hours and almost 100% after 28 hours (when stored liver glycogen was fully depleted). Obviously, for someone who eats a high protein meal before fasting, this is a moot point as you will have plenty of aminos available from food during the fast."

There is a strong difference between short term (16 hour fasting) between whatever you are thinking of....I'm assuming long term.


3. Fasting is no longer fasting when you intake a constant stream of BCAA's....to be quite honest you are doing the same thing by superdosing BCAA's as you would just drinking a few shakes. Of course the shakes would be much cheaper. Calories from the shake vs the bcaa's? Obviously the shakes contain more but they are also more complete and thus will provide your body with a more complete peptide surplus.

There is not a constant stream of bcaa's and I never said there was. Bcaas are taken 5-15 minutes pre-workout. This increases p70s6k phosphorylation..making your post workout 8 hour feeding very favorable, and works against atrophy from heavy intensity.

You will not atrophy from a 16-18 hour fast....and if you do you are doing something very wrong. You may need to look into this more because it seems you're misconstruing fundamental aspects of this type of dieting and you need to learn what it is fully about before calling it garbage.

That's my only reply and will leave you to your expert advice. I'm only offering a different view to somebody who I think was given a one sided opinion on a very good alternative way of dieting/training.