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Mar 1 2016 03:19pm
Quote (airsoft986 @ Mar 1 2016 11:57am)
Yea. Mine have to be all primary sources. So the papers has to include a methods and data section


Yep, I'm not talking about reviews or meta analysis. Off the top of my head I know enoka and kamen are two researchers who publish a lot of training neurophysiology stuff.
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Mar 1 2016 03:22pm
Quote (bnrhodes2 @ Mar 1 2016 01:44am)
I didn't know about the EMG, but I never delved deeply in to the subject. The hand dynamometer was more as a gauge for training response than for an actual CNS test I suppose. The purpose was for the actual planning of the training than for the root physiological reason of the fatigue - there is undeniable fatigue and it can be observed, but CNS fatigue or overload may be the incorrect term that is used by laymen. I can't say that it is possible to easily ascertain the actual scientific cause of the fatigue without testing in a lab, so a practical approach in the field is beneficial for real world use in training manipulation.

I don't have the answers obviously, nor do I necessarily have the correct explanations as to why it happens, but I do know that nervous system response and fatigue does play a role in training and have been around enough elite athletes to have seen and heard discussion of such. I would be interested in seeing this stuff tested and observed in populations that have highly acute senses of the states of their bodies. I have seen so many instances of up and down days when it comes to response to stimulus, that I can't decide what else to attribute it too.

I can only relate with my own experience since I don't have the lab to test these things, and I know that with science, anecdotal and untested information isn't good enough for an explanation. I just see what is going on in the field. I know the throwing events in track and field as that is where my experience has been for over a decade - in that time I have trained with and observed world champions, olympic medalists, and world record holders. At that level of performance, their strength and power has reached a point that training in that aspect generally at a point of diminishing return and they stay around that level. Their main improvements and focus then come from the neural connection with technical changes, rhythm, and response to stimulus (such as ground contact time for force application, application of force to the implement, velocity in varying parts of the technique, etc). That is generally how they talk about their training - how it feels, how they can respond to movement, how they can cause movement, etc. So when there are days or weeks where that response is down, they refer to it as nervous system fatigue. That may be the incorrect way to label it, but when people talk about CNS fatigue, I think that is what they are referring too. When someone is highly in tune with their body, they can tell the difference between being tired, having soreness/doms, and actually feeling like your body won't respond to stimulus the same way. I just don't know what else I would call the later of those things.


When I talk about CnS fatigue I'm not counting motor learning as part of that. Motor patterning is a completely different story as well but the brain and spinal cords ability to innervate muscle sufficiently does not diminish over days of training. Metabolic fatigue is certainly possible ( lack of substrate ) and like I said chronic structural wear but the neuromuscular system doesn't fatigue in the long term as far as we currently know
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Mar 1 2016 09:58pm
Quote (cloudkicker @ Mar 1 2016 05:22pm)
When I talk about CnS fatigue I'm not counting motor learning as part of that. Motor patterning is a completely different story as well but the brain and spinal cords ability to innervate muscle sufficiently does not diminish over days of training. Metabolic fatigue is certainly possible ( lack of substrate ) and like I said chronic structural wear but the neuromuscular system doesn't fatigue in the long term as far as we currently know


Ooo okay. When I have talked about it with my coach and other athletes in track, it was usually in reference to motor patterns since that was always our biggest concern (the goal was to perform the complex techniques properly, and when noticeable fatigue was present, that wouldn't be possible) . I'll have to go back to the previous idea of inflammation or something then. I don't believe that metabolic fatigue was an issue as offseason training always involved being overfed, including intraworkout nutrition.

I did read at one point about a belief that serotonin levels had an impact on CNS fatigue, and also the Central Governor Model, which addressed fatigue in general. But I never really dived into either of those to see where they went.

What would you contribute as an explanation for different performance levels on different days, given that diet and stimulus remain consistent?
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Mar 2 2016 08:57am
My topic wasn't specific enough in regards to physiology
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Mar 2 2016 11:31am
Quote (airsoft986 @ Mar 2 2016 10:57am)
My topic wasn't specific enough in regards to physiology


Look into persistent inward currents, more of an electrophysiology topic. It's the ability of motor neurons to self sustain their activity for a period without direct excitatory drive from presynaptic neurons
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Mar 3 2016 04:32pm
Quote (cloudkicker @ Mar 2 2016 12:31pm)
Look into persistent inward currents, more of an electrophysiology topic. It's the ability of motor neurons to self sustain their activity for a period without direct excitatory drive from presynaptic neurons


my TA said something about my articles as far as having them relate to something such as CO2

along those lines more so. But i definitely wnat to do it on something in regards to lifting. Its just a matter of if I can find 4 primary source articles

This post was edited by airsoft986 on Mar 3 2016 04:33pm
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Mar 3 2016 09:20pm
Quote (airsoft986 @ Mar 3 2016 06:32pm)
my TA said something about my articles as far as having them relate to something such as CO2

along those lines more so. But i definitely wnat to do it on something in regards to lifting. Its just a matter of if I can find 4 primary source articles


what sort of physiology are they looking for? pulmonary phys?
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Mar 4 2016 08:54am
Quote (cloudkicker @ Mar 3 2016 10:20pm)
what sort of physiology are they looking for? pulmonary phys?



He just wanted something more specific than my original topic
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Mar 4 2016 11:06am
Quote (airsoft986 @ Mar 4 2016 10:54am)
He just wanted something more specific than my original topic


Persistent inward currents are all about ion channels in nerve tissue being able to generate small self sustaining currents. You could also look at muscle potentiation which is the ability of muscle to produce greater force per twitch following a small high force potentiality contraction. Phosphorylation of MLCs as well as altered CA++ kinetics in the sarcoplasmic reticulum change twitch properties of muscle based on previous contractions to sort of mitigate initial fatigue effects
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