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Jun 30 2016 01:12pm
Start by clarifying your position a bit.

Are you claiming that like charges attract?
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Jun 30 2016 01:30pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ 30 Jun 2016 10:00)
Here, I'm going to ask a very simple question so you can clarify your position.


Are you claiming that like charges attract each other?



Yes, if the geometry is right.


You have this idea that a small mass has less gravity, so it should have a weaker attraction.
So in the example, if X has the small mass,
and Y the bigger mass,
then you'd think that Y attracts X more strongly than X attracts Y.

This intuition comes from seeing that the bigger mass clearly moves less.
If I drop a spanner (small mass), I experience the spanner falling to the Earth (big mass), not the Earth rising to meet the spanner... so it is tempting to think that the Earth attracts the spanner more than the spanner attracts the Earth.
However - the fact is that if X is attracted to Y, then Y is also attracted to X with equal strength.
X and Y experience the same strength force, in opposite directions. It is" law " #3.
Since F=ma, and the forces are the same, the smaller mass will experience a bigger acceleration, and, so, will have the biggest movement ... giving rise to the intuitive feeling.

There is still a valid idea that big masses have more gravity somehow ...
this is taken up by the common concept of the gravitational field.
To find the force on Y due to X, you take the gravitational field of X, and multiply it by the mass of Y.
To find the force on X due to Y, you take the gravitational field of Y and multiply by the mass of X.
So, if X has mass m and Y has mass M, M > m,
the gravitational field due to X is g X = G m / r 2 gX=Gm/r2,
and the gravitational field due to Y is g Y = G M / r 2 gY=GM/r2 (notice that g Y > g X gY>gX)

You can work out the forces yourself to see how they end up the same, :rofl: even though the strength of gravity supposedly differs.

But that's really when the charges become evident in the way they behave, regardless of the sign we put on them.
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Jun 30 2016 01:34pm
Quote (MaliceMizer @ Jun 30 2016 02:30pm)
Yes, if the geometry is right.


You have this idea that a small mass has less gravity, so it should have a weaker attraction.
So in the example, if X has the small mass,
and Y the bigger mass,
then you'd think that Y attracts X more strongly than X attracts Y.

This intuition comes from seeing that the bigger mass clearly moves less.
If I drop a spanner (small mass), I experience the spanner falling to the Earth (big mass), not the Earth rising to meet the spanner... so it is tempting to think that the Earth attracts the spanner more than the spanner attracts the Earth.
However - the fact is that if X is attracted to Y, then Y is also attracted to X with equal strength.
X and Y experience the same strength force, in opposite directions. It is" law " #3.
Since F=ma, and the forces are the same, the smaller mass will experience a bigger acceleration, and, so, will have the biggest movement ... giving rise to the intuitive feeling.

There is still a valid idea that big masses have more gravity somehow ...
this is taken up by the common concept of the gravitational field.
To find the force on Y due to X, you take the gravitational field of X, and multiply it by the mass of Y.
To find the force on X due to Y, you take the gravitational field of Y and multiply by the mass of X.
So, if X has mass m and Y has mass M, M > m,
the gravitational field due to X is g X = G m / r 2 gX=Gm/r2,
and the gravitational field due to Y is g Y = G M / r 2 gY=GM/r2 (notice that g Y > g X gY>gX)

You can work out the forces yourself to see how they end up the same, :rofl: even though the strength of gravity supposedly differs.

But that's really when the charges become evident in the way they behave, regardless of the sign we put on them.


what, who thinks that ?
nobody who has taken even physics 101 I would hope >.<
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Jun 30 2016 02:02pm
Quote (ringo794 @ 30 Jun 2016 14:34)
what, who thinks that ?
nobody who has taken even physics 101 I would hope >.<


What'd I miss?

I'm purposely leaving out spin atm cause I broke law #2


This post was edited by MaliceMizer on Jun 30 2016 02:02pm
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Jun 30 2016 04:26pm
Forgot to edit, see next post.

This post was edited by Thor123422 on Jun 30 2016 04:37pm
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Jun 30 2016 04:36pm
Quote (MaliceMizer @ Jun 30 2016 01:30pm)
Yes, if the geometry is right.


You have this idea that a small mass has less gravity, so it should have a weaker attraction.
So in the example, if X has the small mass,
and Y the bigger mass,
then you'd think that Y attracts X more strongly than X attracts Y.

This intuition comes from seeing that the bigger mass clearly moves less.
If I drop a spanner (small mass), I experience the spanner falling to the Earth (big mass), not the Earth rising to meet the spanner... so it is tempting to think that the Earth attracts the spanner more than the spanner attracts the Earth.
However - the fact is that if X is attracted to Y, then Y is also attracted to X with equal strength.
X and Y experience the same strength force, in opposite directions. It is" law " #3.
Since F=ma, and the forces are the same, the smaller mass will experience a bigger acceleration, and, so, will have the biggest movement ... giving rise to the intuitive feeling.

There is still a valid idea that big masses have more gravity somehow ...
this is taken up by the common concept of the gravitational field.
To find the force on Y due to X, you take the gravitational field of X, and multiply it by the mass of Y.
To find the force on X due to Y, you take the gravitational field of Y and multiply by the mass of X.
So, if X has mass m and Y has mass M, M > m,
the gravitational field due to X is g X = G m / r 2 gX=Gm/r2,
and the gravitational field due to Y is g Y = G M / r 2 gY=GM/r2 (notice that g Y > g X gY>gX)

You can work out the forces yourself to see how they end up the same, :rofl: even though the strength of gravity supposedly differs.

But that's really when the charges become evident in the way they behave, regardless of the sign we put on them.


Okay, so I read through and followed the math, and it's valid until you get to the conclusion. There isn't anything you have said that implies anything about electric charges. You've got a big jump in logic on the last line.

Our intuition about gravity is just that, an intuition. Intuitions can be wrong. The strength of gravity being equal is because both objects are influenced by both fields, you don't need to incorporate anything about charges for this to be the case.

You can easily demonstrate that like charges repel each other though, just by using balloons like Azrad says. There are a few instances where this might not be the case, like in what you posted, but the exceptions are only for special circumstances like distances on the order of 10 picometers. However these instances are still understandable in the context that like charges repel and unlike charges attract.

This post was edited by Thor123422 on Jun 30 2016 04:44pm
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Jun 30 2016 05:21pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ 30 Jun 2016 17:36)
Okay, so I read through and followed the math, and it's valid until you get to the conclusion. There isn't anything you have said that implies anything about electric charges. You've got a big jump in logic on the last line.

Our intuition about gravity is just that, an intuition. Intuitions can be wrong. The strength of gravity being equal is because both objects are influenced by both fields, you don't need to incorporate anything about charges for this to be the case.

You can easily demonstrate that like charges repel each other though, just by using balloons like Azrad says. There are a few instances where this might not be the case, like in what you posted, but the exceptions are only for special circumstances like distances on the order of 10 picometers. However these instances are still understandable in the context that like charges repel and unlike charges attract.


Rather than a rule "like charges repel each other"' it
is "charges which repel each other are said to be like charges".

If you want to understand a magnetic universe, but can’t because your logic won’t let you,
the pitiful solution is to maybe recognize that we are definitely ignorant about how the universe works as a whole.
We have approximations for the most critical aspects of our math, that we use to project millennia and call it fact.

As humans we can build models that seem to explain a lot, but they’re skewed to what we have been measuring since the invention of the square, matter, and matter is subject to biases we don’t know as a civilization.
I'm solving some biases demonstrably, and since there's no guruship directions for correspondence, I see no reason why they can't be discussed anywhere.

To me it's foolish to believe we have any kind of certainty about how shit works. Even the world’s top physicists are probably more aware of their own ignorance than we are of ours.

Every advance in physics shows us that the universe is far stranger than we had previously imagined.
Space is curved now? What?

So my logic from what I can measure with newer technologies than a square and the perspective of someone who believes that the universe is absolute rhyme and reason, instead of inconsistencies, is to connect new discoveries to old problems.

Most of what I claim will probably be obsoleted by future advancement, like when we start measuring with plasma, but there's nothing I see behind me that holds any weight for the facts I am bringing you.

This post was edited by MaliceMizer on Jun 30 2016 05:39pm
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Jun 30 2016 07:08pm
still waiting for a mathematical law to express your system that replaces gravity like :zzz:
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Jun 30 2016 07:13pm
is this still a thing
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Jun 30 2016 07:21pm
Quote (MaliceMizer @ Jun 30 2016 05:21pm)
Rather than a rule "like charges repel each other"' it
is "charges which repel each other are said to be like charges".

If you want to understand a magnetic universe, but can’t because your logic won’t let you,
the pitiful solution is to maybe recognize that we are definitely ignorant about how the universe works as a whole.
We have approximations for the most critical aspects of our math, that we use to project millennia and call it fact.

As humans we can build models that seem to explain a lot, but they’re skewed to what we have been measuring since the invention of the square, matter, and matter is subject to biases we don’t know as a civilization.
I'm solving some biases demonstrably, and since there's no guruship directions for correspondence, I see no reason why they can't be discussed anywhere.

To me it's foolish to believe we have any kind of certainty about how shit works. Even the world’s top physicists are probably more aware of their own ignorance than we are of ours.

Every advance in physics shows us that the universe is far stranger than we had previously imagined.
Space is curved now? What?

So my logic from what I can measure with newer technologies than a square and the perspective of someone who believes that the universe is absolute rhyme and reason, instead of inconsistencies, is to connect new discoveries to old problems.

Most of what I claim will probably be obsoleted by future advancement, like when we start measuring with plasma, but there's nothing I see behind me that holds any weight for the facts I am bringing you.


The ignorance of physics here is really astounding. You could shatter your world view by taking a physics 101 or history of science class. There's a huge body of knowledge you aren't even aware of that goes beyond "repelling charges are labelled as the same".

The ignorance here is honestly astounding. I'm not joking when I say you don't even have a high school understanding of physics or history of science. This is a sad fact.

You never actually made an argument for your position, you just suggested that we don't know everything, so science might be wrong. That's true in only the most pedantic sense for classical mechanics. You could make that argument about more advanced levels, but classic mechanics is pretty well nailed down, and classical mechanics describes 99.9% of the entire universe.
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