its sunday

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Labor is not entitled to all it creates, unless that labor pays for everything that enables it to create.

The employer needs you, and you need the employer. Sure, you can go elsewhere. So can they.

labor creates all that enables it to create



you don't need the employer, the employer needs you

So what? Property is owned by people. Materials are owned by people. The business owner pays to rent a building and pays to acquire materials, then pays someone to come into the building and use the materials to create a product and turn a profit. If the labor wants to be entitled to everything they create, they need to have the capital to rent the building and buy the materials.

You can keep repeating yourself, but that doesn't make it true. People need a job... and employers need employees. We both need each other.

but all you're saying is that the worker needs capital, not that the worker needs an employer

so my point stands, the worker does not need the employer

99% of workers don't have the ability to open up a business and succeed, thus they need an employer. Even if they had the capital(which would come from working for an employer), it wouldn't matter.

99% is an exaggeration but i understand your point and even agree with it

but planning / running a business =/= being an employer, even if it is one thing employers do

workers for much work that requires specialized or technical knowledge need management, but a manager who performs mental labor is a worker as well, whereas an employer may or may not be contributing any value (i.e. you can simply "own" a business after having started it, or even having just bought it or inherited it and acquire value (passive income) through ownership without doing anything at all)



backwards, capitalists acquire most of the capital through being worked for

e: or through violent conquest or exclusion (most land ownership)

This post was edited by Nathan on May 1 2016 12:38am

That is beside the point. The fact remains that people need a job, and employers need workers. We both need each other.

We're discussing a hypothetical situation where a worker would need capital to open a business. Most people don't inherit money so obviously they would need to work for an employer to acquire the capital.

you seem to not be willing or able to separate a job, i.e. some form of habitual labor from an employer, who is specifically someone who has private ownership over the means of production

simply look at a co-op, which isn't hypothetical. there are jobs, and there are no employers; the laborers are cooperative and are not working for one person but for themselves



you're right but most also can't acquire enough capital to become capitalists themselves (assuming they ought to) as they will be forever too busy affording their necessities and what they can save for themselves for emergency

e: and this doesn't mean it's how things ought to be

This post was edited by Nathan on May 1 2016 12:53am