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Member
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Jan 18 2022 09:41am
Blizzard making me $$$

Still red today even when them lmao

This post was edited by Bazi on Jan 18 2022 09:41am
Member
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Jan 18 2022 12:53pm
Quote (Bazi @ Jan 18 2022 03:41pm)
Blizzard making me $$$

Still red today even when them lmao


when u tell them u made $$$ on blizzard and they ask what u made on other stonks today




This post was edited by dro94 on Jan 18 2022 12:53pm
Member
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Jan 18 2022 01:47pm
Quote (dro94 @ Jan 18 2022 12:53pm)
when u tell them u made $$$ on blizzard and they ask what u made on other stonks today


https://imgur.com/lVcjyt5.mp4


:rofl:

^_^

:gun
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Jan 19 2022 07:10am
Quote (KrWWW @ Jan 11 2022 08:43pm)
why would you think $TSLA is going under 900 again?


Because TSLA is grossly overpriced by any conventional valuation metric.
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Jan 19 2022 01:56pm
Quote (bogie160 @ Jan 19 2022 08:10am)
Because TSLA is grossly overpriced by any conventional valuation metric.


lol

post your model
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Jan 19 2022 05:10pm
Quote (S3th @ Jan 19 2022 02:56pm)
lol

post your model


We don't need to do anything too complex. Its market cap is larger than the rest of the top 10 auto-manufacturers combined, it sells a fraction of the cars, and it's barely profitable. We have to bake in gargantuan growth assumptions in both revenue and income to justify its current price level, but the size of the car market itself doesn't lend itself to the required valuations. Its market cap already assumes that TSLA is the largest auto-manufacturer on the planet.

Valuation: We don't know the Q4 2021 results yet, so we'll include the analyst expectation of $1.57, which brings 2021 full year results in at $4.42 EPS. That puts TSLA at 225x present earnings. Let's take TSLA's growth projections at face value, not a particularly smart decision as Elon has been promising us FSD "next year" since at least 2014, and expect that TSLA sees 50%+ year over year revenue growth for a "multi-year" period, and scales income accordingly. Let's see them growing at that pace for 5 straight years.

$4.42 * 50% growth over 5 years = $33.56 EPS reported sometime in January 2027. Let's give TSLA the benefit of the doubt at this point, and assign a P/E that reflects a tech growth company (~30 P/E) and not that of an auto-manufacturer. We'll continue to assume that TSLA's margins remain robust in the face of a more challenging environment (i.e. vehicle price reductions required to continue to continue to grow sales) and increased competition. Neither of those things is assured. We end up with a 2027 price target somewhere in the ballpark of ~$1k. You'd be better off buying treasury bonds and earning a negative real return. Lord forbid that they're ever valued on par with auto-manufacturers, because it would end up as a fraction of that price.

Why can't we assign a higher P/E?: Let's play it out. Map an identical, optimistic scenario and assign a P/E of 100. TSLA's market cap now makes it the most valuable company on earth, and yet with a revenue only ~40% higher than Toyota's 2021 results. What justifies the obscene valuation? Is TSLA going to continue to grow to be bigger than Apple, Microsoft, Google, and Amazon combined? Growth must slow as size and scale increase. There's only so many cars to sell.

Even in the fantastical scenario where we assume that TSLA grows to monopolize the entire existing car manufacturing market by market cap, there's only ~70% upside to current levels. If we assume that they do this over 5 years, which isn't possible given TSLA's own assumptions, that's a year over year return of ~11%. Not bad in a vacuum, but completely unacceptable given that we're receiving market returns in the absolute best case scenario, with implausible assumptions that physically can't hold up, and in anything less than fantastical we're just better off buying and holding SPY or your regular, off the street index fund.

This post was edited by bogie160 on Jan 19 2022 05:11pm
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Jan 19 2022 06:25pm
While many want to box Tesla into the automotive market segment, it doesn't fit the line of businesses Tesla is in. When you understand this, you will see that Tesla is vertically integrating far more than its competition ever will. Tesla already achieves margins twice that or more of its competitors and will continue to grow its margin based on securing supply chains and reduced cost that comes from R&D and scale. Additionally, Tesla has ROIC, CAGR, etc. at rates significantly higher than its automotive peers. Tesla's non-gaap forward 2022 E/P is ~85x and 2023 ~53x; not that expensive. Remember, P/E is based on forward growth rates; not the industry in which it competes. Tesla could easily hold it's current P/E if it continues to grow at +50%/year and the rest of the automotive segment continues to shrink.

2022 catalysts
- $12K FSD (increase of $2,000)
- 4Q EPS/production road map
- WS raises EPS/PTs
- Austin/Berlin open
- Investment-grade credit rating
- Bidens $8K EV Credit
- FSD full release
- 4680 scale production
- generate >$10B in FCF after CAPEX (so unprofitable) and could be debit free if they wanted by 2023.

Q4 2021 production numbers have already been released.
- Analyst consensus was ~267K in Q4 and 897K FY21
- Actuals: 309K in Q4 and 936K; an annual increase of 87% versus 2020. (note that the EV market grew by 86% in 2021)

I believe the current estimate for Q4 is $2.25 and not $1.57. Additionally, you will likely see 2022 EPS rise to over $12 after earnings.

Tesla will grow deliveries by 50-70% in 2022. Tesla continues to capture massively needed, in limited supply raw material supply chains dating past 2025.

Automotive competitors are
- old and move slow
- cannibalize their own offerings with unprofitable/low-profit EVs
- require massive CAPEX investments for scale production
- short-term outlook
- burdened with debts, dividends, unions, and an outdated dealership model that reduces profitability and passes increased cost to the consumer

& all of that is based on the automotive segment... now you can start pricing in FSD, AI, Energy, Semi, and unfathomably Robots and start to see where Tesla will be in 2030, 2040, 2050+

PS the only automotive competition will come from China.
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Posts: 64,763
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Jan 19 2022 07:13pm
Quote (S3th @ Jan 19 2022 06:25pm)
While many want to box Tesla into the automotive market segment, it doesn't fit the line of businesses Tesla is in. When you understand this, you will see that Tesla is vertically integrating far more than its competition ever will. Tesla already achieves margins twice that or more of its competitors and will continue to grow its margin based on securing supply chains and reduced cost that comes from R&D and scale. Additionally, Tesla has ROIC, CAGR, etc. at rates significantly higher than its automotive peers. Tesla's non-gaap forward 2022 E/P is ~85x and 2023 ~53x; not that expensive. Remember, P/E is based on forward growth rates; not the industry in which it competes. Tesla could easily hold it's current P/E if it continues to grow at +50%/year and the rest of the automotive segment continues to shrink.

2022 catalysts
- $12K FSD (increase of $2,000)
- 4Q EPS/production road map
- WS raises EPS/PTs
- Austin/Berlin open
- Investment-grade credit rating
- Bidens $8K EV Credit
- FSD full release
- 4680 scale production
- generate >$10B in FCF after CAPEX (so unprofitable) and could be debit free if they wanted by 2023.

Q4 2021 production numbers have already been released.
- Analyst consensus was ~267K in Q4 and 897K FY21
- Actuals: 309K in Q4 and 936K; an annual increase of 87% versus 2020. (note that the EV market grew by 86% in 2021)

I believe the current estimate for Q4 is $2.25 and not $1.57. Additionally, you will likely see 2022 EPS rise to over $12 after earnings.

Tesla will grow deliveries by 50-70% in 2022. Tesla continues to capture massively needed, in limited supply raw material supply chains dating past 2025.

Automotive competitors are
- old and move slow
- cannibalize their own offerings with unprofitable/low-profit EVs
- require massive CAPEX investments for scale production
- short-term outlook
- burdened with debts, dividends, unions, and an outdated dealership model that reduces profitability and passes increased cost to the consumer

& all of that is based on the automotive segment... now you can start pricing in FSD, AI, Energy, Semi, and unfathomably Robots and start to see where Tesla will be in 2030, 2040, 2050+

PS the only automotive competition will come from China.


"& all of that is based on the automotive segment... now you can start pricing in FSD, AI, Energy, Semi, and unfathomably Robots and start to see where Tesla will be in 2030, 2040, 2050+"

This is basically what Bogie said. In order to think Tesla's valuation is fair you have to factor in any number of wildly successful endeavors beyond automative. Tesla meeting its current valuation won't just mean they are massively dominating the EV market, it will mean they basically created a questionably possible scientific utopia.
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Jan 19 2022 08:44pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Jan 19 2022 08:13pm)
"& all of that is based on the automotive segment... now you can start pricing in FSD, AI, Energy, Semi, and unfathomably Robots and start to see where Tesla will be in 2030, 2040, 2050+"

This is basically what Bogie said. In order to think Tesla's valuation is fair you have to factor in any number of wildly successful endeavors beyond automative. Tesla meeting its current valuation won't just mean they are massively dominating the EV market, it will mean they basically created a questionably possible scientific utopia.


Tesla is meeting is a current valuation based on its automotive segment...
Member
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Jan 19 2022 08:48pm
Quote (S3th @ Jan 19 2022 08:44pm)
Tesla is meeting is a current valuation based on its automotive segment...


Lol not even close. It could take 100% of the automotive market in the U.S. next year and it wouldn't support the current valuation.

It needs to not only dominate cars, but all batteries and solar power as well to be worth its current price.
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