Quote (arxyn @ Sun, Oct 18 2009, 08:35pm)

The only thing that affects your average damage output on heavy weapons is the fact that the monsters defense will only be subtracted once instead of twice for a normal weapon (in the same interval of time).

Everything else stays the same.

Heres what you guys are confusing, I think. You say EE/str affects it more since it's base is higher. However each time you multiply it by that factor your also dividing it by the time factor so everything comes back to normal.

ie:

(2*x)/2 = x

Quote (Safmy @ Sun, Oct 18 2009, 09:48am)

Ya I think alot of misunderstanding is happening here. I do agree however that there are alot more pros unknown to the majority of heavy weapons. Even though you and I would likely opt for the 226ee sword for speed lvling sense over the 63 ee one, not many see the point you're trying to make is that the ee is not exactly double on heavy weapons, in fact the ratio increases as you go up. So a 113ee heavy weapon would deal a significant amount more damage over the 226ee sword (in one hit of course) and would deal perhaps up to 4x the damage of 226ee sword if the heavy wep had 226ee as well. However there are many factors that come to play and for the sake of argument I will try to outline the few that I can think of (arxyn pointed out one of them).

Heavy weapons have a higher base damage therefore the multiplier for it achieves a higher possible efficiency than a normal weapon, be it 1/2 the speed.
E.g: Lets say normal wep base damage is 100 and it has 100 ee which roughly brings it to 200dmg output. A 200base heavy can reach 400 with that same amount of ee.

Here is where the confusion starts, though ee wise you see that the damage has only been doubled and the speed halved (effectively the same damage) we are missing one tiny variable that affects the ee. And that is the str. If say your str is 100, then you have reached maximum possible efficiency for your ee in this case (100). You would need to match whatever ee you have with your str for maximum efficiency to be achieved. This ofc is not always doable when say you have 226ee sword as not many people can reach 226str without weakening or neglecting their character in some other defensive/crit based stats like int and dex.

In effect, if you were to somehow muster up 226str on that same character and start comparing the two weapons again you will find that the sword will be more than 1x the damage of the heavy weapon, in fact if we were to assume for a second that your heavy wep was 113ee than they would almost (I say almost) be the same damage.

Someone brought this issue of calculating ee to str once (dragonsomething) and showed that it is gaining the perfect square that makes it the most efficient for your weapon of choice. That is 100eex100str = 1000area, 150ee x 50str = 750area etc. The further away you get from your perfect area the less effective the multiplier will be, that is you add up to 250str say for your 226ee sword it will still increase the damage of the sword ofc but not as much as the 226th str point that peaks it's multiplier (4x I think?).

tl:dr
Heavies don't suck for varies reasons imo :D. And you rock, whoever you are!

I am saying all this from purely what I know without actually checking your character, and I immediately assume that you don't actually have str anywhere near 200 just looking at the value of dmg shown.

Hope all this shed some light, I for one very much like heavy weapons particularly those with easy to maximize efficiency ee (like the one you have) and focus my stats on other important stats contributing to defense and longevity of my combat mode without having to heal (such as dex / int).

Quote (SmokeyMcPot1990 @ Sun, Oct 18 2009, 11:16pm)

k well next time tetsu is lvl 55 ill get him to have both of these swords on his ninja to show you the 226 str with Variable other stats such as dex not compromised for. this should help you with your ideals but it will still be exactly the same dmg shown on the swords.

Quote (SmokeyMcPot1990 @ Sun, Oct 18 2009, 10:16pm)

k well next time tetsu is lvl 55 ill get him to have both of these swords on his ninja to show you the 226 str with Variable other stats such as dex not compromised for. this should help you with your ideals but it will still be exactly the same dmg shown on the swords. And also 63ee-226ee  that is alot more than 2x its 3.5 times more The fact that it attacks half the speed is no mind in the end when the catas last for 10 lvls+ per it evens out.

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not anymore but they were originally posted on the same character the 226 ee was returned to owner.

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And, you are pathetic....... stuping to insults to try to get your point across. Throwing out STR+20/dex is not accurate. There is about 5% of the possible scenarios where this is the proper thing to do. Otherwise, there is alot of other factors involved.

Ya, I know.......... my real world tests are wrong. I should just listen to you since you know how to eloquently state your facts.... ie "you're stupid" (had quite a bit of respect for you up until that comment) Guess I didn't know you well enough yet .

I'm stating FACTS based upon my real world tests of thousands of kills under specific scenarios and FACTS show that with my high EE weapon, the BEST average damage whether it is arena, or maze or prior to update no maze is having my STR close to my EE and if possible any leftovers into DEX ( as long as I have at least 70 dex minimum). Yes, I've killed over 50K mobs now in ARENA only with only 70 dex and I average 8-12mins/level from 55-71. With a balanced setup (equal STR, equal DEX (140/125)), I can also solo arena just fine but it takes me 12-20mins/level in arena from 55-71.

I know I know, it must be because I don't know how to tell time or that I'm slashing in some alernate dimension where everything is "special" for me.

Show me some screenshots which back up your suggestions. Until then, your comments are only that..... comments. I'm trying to give screenshots to back up what I'm testing and you want to call me "stupid" ....... nice

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Nope
And I havent been wrong in this thread yet...
Your statement about str matching ee has no basis
Damage from ee, dex and str comes from (1+ee/100)(.95+str/100)(1+(crit%)(crit multiplier-1))
Learn math and you'll see that str/dex are not affected in any way by your ee

Shame on you devilwithin lol, you fell into his trap
Consider any weapon with any ee, to maximize it's damage you want the bold part to be large
Think about it, I'm not wrong

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you ARE wrong....have you taken Calculus? To maximize your damage, your STR and EE should be near each other

you maximize area by making a Square (if you are talking about EE/STR) or a cube (if talking about EE/STR/Dex)

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yes but your ee is constant with your weapon
what we are debating here is the merits of dex vs str
I actually have taken a heck of a lot of calculus, more than you I guarantee it

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yes, it is
and yes, your damage pointwise when taking str and ee into account will be highest when they are equal
but what you guys seem to not be considering is that you can't adjust your level of ee
so that chunk of the equation, formula or not, is constant
so you want to maximize the things multiplying it
and those other parts do not contain EE in their equations
so EE has nothing to do with how you should stat your character

Quote (J_B @ Sun, Oct 18 2009, 07:48pm)

I'm going to just go ahead and make some statements without specifically addressing anyone in particular

though they deal the same amount of damage in a hit, the regular sword will outperform the longsword, theres nothing you can say or do to convince anyone otherwise
the half speed makes it a shitty weapon, you're basically using a 63EE weapon and I could care less about it's type
the fact that you're outperforming others with higher EE regular weapons is not attributable to the longsword being better. It just means that either the player isn't hitting all the time, or is using shitty str/dex gear

the damage being the same with less EE is just because:
damage = base*(1+EE/100)
so in this case
base*2*(1.63) = 3.26*base
base*(1+2.23) = 3.23*base
so ofc they should be similar in end damage....
but the heavy still hits twice as slow, so it's damage output is halfed

as arxyn pointed out with my quotes, using a heavy weapon should mean nothing with your str
yes, we all know area is maximized in a square
but that is when you're given a set amount of perimeter with which to construct your square enclosure
in this case, your EE is constant
so what you're maximizing is your str and dex multipliers which, OOPS, don't care about your EE one bit

lastly, given the choice of any weapon in the game to have at 280EE, I'd pick a regular axe or dagger
with the amount of damage you're going to be putting up, underkill from a sword wouldn't help you, but overkill would be detrimental
the effects of overkill with a heavy and the slower hits just make it not worth it

another negative for heavies is suppose a monster has 3 life and you have a regular weapon doing 1 damage and a heavy doing 2
then it takes you 4 seconds to be able to start hitting another monster after you kill this one with your heavy, or 3 with a regular
so you're losing a bit of time, which will be more pronounced in catas since you don't have a delay in hitting the resummon button between monsters that dampens this second that you lose

but on the other hand, if I was going to play with a low (75) EE weapon, I'd pick a longsword