Thanks for the explanation... But... how easy is it for a new person with no funds?
How easy is a melee character to well items successfully @ level40+?



I was going to number each point that was made in your comments (10)... thing is, it is not a debate, and I do not want to ramble about technical issues that some slashers have when playing in catacombs... whether or not they have a 9 month old computer that is worth over $3500... or packet transfer from server to user PC when DISTANCE is a factor in delaying items appearing or when actions are performed.

Let us go back to basics... it is Version 1.15... forget unspawnables etc
Which character class can effectively do the following without using Glyphs...
... Solo 1-71? ... ... ... ... #1 Caster ... #2 Hybrid (expensive)
... Well @ level 64 with 99% success rate? ... ... ... ... #1 Caster ... #2 Hybrid (sometimes)
... Which Class is always welcomed in a catacomb group?... #1 Caster (Healer)... #2 Hybrid (Healer)
... ... Which character class can do all of the above without using GLYPHS?... #1 Caster...

4x Caster
3x Hybrid
0x Melee

Where is the balance? ...

The 15% was an idea... at least I said to Cap it... promote group play?... This is how I see Ladder Slasher now.. and it is from comments throughout the LS forum.

1... MQ ... MQ ... MQ... that is right... this game is about Master Quests...
... Based on this... people go Catacomb to climb up fast to do an MQ... repeat/recycle
2... See #1

Honestly... it is not about Master Quests to me... it is about making my character the best character I can... by means this game provides.
Grind & Find to upgrade... not use an item that disappears after use
____________________

Great feedback welcomed... ty

Mixed feelings (null vote).

My complaint is not necessarily the mechanics of the game. It is the idea that Paul did not want one modifier to be too powerful. Life steal was clearly too powerful. Once life steal bit the dust, the only new way to play is Hybrid with any efficiency. A hybrid character is not a mechanical argument since it utilizes several facets of the game, however, it still falls in to the category of "the only way to play". There shouldn't be just "one way to play". There must be an intricate balance that is relatively even for several avenues of play styles.

I can't make a straight tank melee character which can chain as many as a hybrid. I cannot use life steal to chain the same as a hybrid. I cannot use "stat items" (dex/str) to chain the same as a hybrid. The mechanical balance is true, no doubt in my mind. However, the balance of functionality is not. Alternatively, a robe wearing classes hasn't a chance in hell to survive in Arena nearly as effectively as a plate wearing class (which forces alternative builds *hybrid*)

My point is, if I recall correctly, Paul did not want one single factor or way to be the only way. Hybrid has replaced life steal. Before life steal was the only way. Now, hybrid is the only way. To play any differently is futile and this is where I definitely see a balance issue.

I'll add in somethings to this.

... Solo 1-71? ... ... ... ... #1 Caster ... #2 Hybrid (expensive) Very true.
... Well @ level 64 with 99% success rate? ... ... ... ... #1 Caster ... #2 Hybrid (sometimes) All depends on the gear they use.
... Which Class is always welcomed in a catacomb group?... #1 Caster (Healer)... #2 Hybrid (Healer) Not sure how I feel about this. Each type of character is equally welcome in a cata group. You will always need some sort of healer and then melee/tank people. In my opinion a hybrid is sort of a bonus. Not many hybrid characters can heal level to level by themselves. If you get a hybrid that can heal from level to level I think it will only make your group faster.


Playing full melee is still an option in my opinion. I recently did a full melee climb on a sammi and was chaining 10-15 chains per regen at 55+. Granted I was using a really good MQ setup it is still possible to be efficient. You just need a good set, kind of like most other games played. I was not using glyphs or life steal on any of the items.

If you still struggling you can buy glyphs or start glyphing(if your struggling in your fg) for yourself, they can help your climb tremendously.




This post was edited by Moojilsuh on Sep 5 2009 11:56am

ye its a pretty idea, but it would be better to go up like 1000, 2000, 4000, 8000, 16000... that way it would be "capped" at 5 or 6... or make it with a lower exponential to get a bit more...
we wouldnt want people with 50life steal just with proficiencies...





still, the time it takes for you to kill a mob, i can kill 5....
i've playd both caster and melee with some of the best items around here, and i know what im saying...
i enjoyed playing melee doing 40 chains at level 60+, but thats pretty impossible now (full melee)
and with mage i can still do level 60+ in much less time than a melee before (not all in a row, but the items u pick are usually enough to shrine and go again)

This post was edited by MindC0ntr0l. on Sep 5 2009 11:56am

glyph

@ Przy... game mech is fine... the suggestion is to get a bit more continuity to the Melee class.
@ Moojilsuh... Hi ya... Melee is definately a welcome breed in catas... I feel that my character is getting stronger... but lacks when trying to Well / Arena @ higher levels...
.. As for the Glyphs... I would rather save my FG to buy up some MQ items instead of wasting them on items that have a time use... as for glyphing myself... I have tried
.. many times... but due to my PC and Server... Distance (around the other side of the world), is the problem... I basically fail 90% of the time...
@ wigwam same response to Moojilsuh...
__________________

Recap on Sub-Proficiencies:
Based on alot of the comments... I see that there are some areas to cover, hence the title: Incomplete - Brainstorming

The "Sub-Proficiencies" will have to be selected by Performance... meaning a bit more realistic... there will be NO "Life Steal" sub-proficiency:
List of Sub-Proficiencies to be used:
... X% Max Damage Return... Skill in certain weapons mean that damage can be returned... by striking the hand while defending
... X% Armor Pierce... This is based only on weapons that have the chance to pierce... dagger/sword/spear etc
... X% Block... as we all know... simple skill for weapons
... X% Critical Flux... once again... skill can determine if the strike was potentially dangerous
... X% Physical Damage Reduction... this would be similar to Parrying ones strike... deflect etc
... X% Quick Draw... common to become quicker with strikes as familiarity becomes automatic
... X% Power Shot... putting in more effort in a certain strike
... X% Glancing Blow... Not sure on this one... or what it reflects.. sounds similar to parry... not sure

After looking at the Table that shows what X% is maximum, there will have to be an even further Cap... 6% being the highest acheivable.
The table has a Max Cap of 14% (level55 item)... so 6% Add is not bad


After some more responses... I might setup an updated one with all the information collated...
Thank you all for the great responses and information...

Sub-Proficiency Update:
To make this work better, we have to do a number of things to ensure how this can be done effectively:

1. Select what X% Skills that fall into a "Sub-Proficiency" (Please Note: Selection Below Only)
... X% Quick Draw
... X% Block
... X% Glancing Blow
... X% Physical Damage Reduction
... X% Armor Pierce
... X% Max Damage Return
... X% Critical Flux
... X% Power Shot

2. Place "Weapon" types into Categories:.... Slash, Pierce, Thrust, Impact, and Crush
Sword = Slash/Pierce
Club = Crush/Impact
Axe = Slash/Impact
Dagger = Pierce/Thrust
Staff = Crush/Impact
Longsword = Slash/Impact
Warhammer = Crush/Impact
Battleaxe = Slash/Impact
Spear = Pierce/Impact
Polearm = Pierce/Impact

3. Place "Sub-Proficiencies" into Categories:... Slash, Pierce, Thrust, Impact, and Crush
... X% Quick Draw = Slash - Pierce ... NOTE: Excluding Heavy Weapons
... X% Block = Slash - Crush
... X% Glancing Blow = Slash - Pierce - Crush
... X% Physical Damage Reduction = Slash - Impact
... X% Armor Pierce = Slash - Pierce
... X% Max Damage Return = Impact - Crush
... X% Critical Flux = Slash - Impact - Pierce
... X% Power Shot = Slash - Impact

4. Combining #2 and #3, "Sub-Proficiencies" will be applied in the following manner:
Sword Sub-Proficiency Ranks ETC:
... Sword Rank05 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Quick Draw
... Sword Rank10 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Block
... Sword Rank15 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Glancing Blow
... Sword Rank20 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Physical Damage Reduction
... Sword Rank25 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Armor Pierce
... Sword Rank30 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Critical Flux
... Sword Rank35 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Power Shot
... ... No More "Sub-Proficiency" Category fits into Sword...
Club/Staff Sub-Proficiency Ranks ETC:
... Club/Staff Rank05 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Block
... Club/Staff Rank10 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Glancing Blow
... Club/Staff Rank15 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Physical Damage Reduction
... Club/Staff Rank20 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Max Damage Return
... Club/Staff Rank25 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Critical Flux
... Club/Staff Rank30 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Power Shot
... ... No More "Sub-Proficiency" Category fits into Club/Staff...
Axe Sub-Proficiency Ranks ETC:
... Axe Rank05 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Quick Draw
... Axe Rank10 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Block
... Axe Rank15 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Physical Damage Reduction
... Axe Rank20 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Armor Pierce
... Axe Rank25 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Max Damage Return
... Axe Rank30 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Critical Flux
... Axe Rank35 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Power Shot
... ... No More "Sub-Proficiency" Category fits into Axe...
Dagger Sub-Proficiency Ranks ETC:
... Dagger Rank05 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Quick Draw
... Dagger Rank10 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Glancing Blow
... Dagger Rank15 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Armor Pierce
... Dagger Rank20 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Critical Flux
... ... No More "Sub-Proficiency" Category fits into Dagger...
Longsword/Battleaxe/Spear/Polearm Sub-Proficiency Ranks ETC:
... Longsword/Battleaxe/Spear/Polearm Rank05 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Block
... Longsword/Battleaxe/Spear/Polearm Rank10 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Glancing Blow
... Longsword/Battleaxe/Spear/Polearm Rank15 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Physical Damage Reduction
... Longsword/Battleaxe/Spear/Polearm Rank20 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Armor Pierce
... Longsword/Battleaxe/Spear/Polearm Rank25 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Max Damage Return
... Longsword/Battleaxe/Spear/Polearm Rank30 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Critical Flux
... Longsword/Battleaxe/Spear/Polearm Rank35 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Power Shot
... ... No More "Sub-Proficiency" Category fits into Longsword/Battleaxe/Spear/Polearm...
Warhammer Sub-Proficiency Ranks ETC:
... Warhammer Rank05 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Glancing Blow
... Warhammer Rank10 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Physical Damage Reduction
... Warhammer Rank15 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Max Damage Return
... Warhammer Rank20 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Critical Flux
... Warhammer Rank25 Proficiency Gains one "Sub-Proficiency" = Power Shot
... ... No More "Sub-Proficiency" Category fits into Warhammer...


5. Sub-Proficiency Gains Ranks the same way as Proficiencies, with a twist:
Rank1 (Sub) = 0-6000
Rank2 (Sub) = 0-7500
Rank3 (Sub) = 0-9000
Rank4 (Sub) = 0-10,500
Rank5 (Sub) = 0-12,000
Rank6 (Sub) = 0-13,500 ... Capped: Highest Rank Level = 6%

But, can be added to any weapon with the same ADDS... e.g. (Sub) 6% Quick Draw + (Wpn) 8% Quick Draw = 14% Total

So basically what you are saying is that we need sub profs because your internet is not good enough to glyph?

guess you can not read... your impression is somewhat missing a few nuts & bolts.

Sub-proficiencies came about because melee classes need a bit more oomph when it comes to certain areas.

Glyphs are just consumables... and even if I lived next door to the server... I would not even waste
my time glyphing... I could be out there finding that item