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Dec 9 2007 12:42pm
Great books! Got Confessor the day it came out.
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Dec 9 2007 12:52pm
Quote (Kulith @ Sat, Dec 8 2007, 07:38pm)
Ignore Achilles, SOT is the best series ive read in my life.  Im not going to start another argument about it again though.


Achilles seems to be one of the few people that actually understands good fiction on this forum...
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Dec 9 2007 06:36pm
Quote (Veilside @ Sun, Dec 9 2007, 06:52pm)
Achilles seems to be one of the few people that actually understands good fiction on this forum...


Achilles has his tastes just like everybody else.
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Dec 9 2007 06:57pm
everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

i appreciate achilles giving his personal feedback.

anybody else?
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Dec 9 2007 10:15pm
Quote (AchillesHK @ Tue, Dec 4 2007, 01:10pm)
The only torture involved in Goodkind is the process of actually trying to read his crap. No, I am not put off by the S&M scenes. I could care less about who has to eat a nutsack or whose a closet masochist.

Goodkind has alot of problems. First, he's not a good writer. His prose is weak and borders on painful at times. His story has magical swords, wizards, dragons, great evil and greater good, riddled with more fantasy cliches than you can shake a stick at...yet he arrogantly asserts that he doesn't write fantasy. In fact he goes out of his way to shit on the genre. There are a few too many coincidences between his series and WoT to be mere coincidence, though he'd go into a mouth foaming rage if you mentioned that to him. He is a poor writer and storyteller. A moron and asshole of the highest order if you've ever heard/read an interview.

But all of this I can forgive. There are after all alot of bad writers out there, even some with delusions of adequacy that Goodkind seems to have. Its the fact that his books amount to little more than thinly veiled attempts to push his own political agenda that annoys the hell out of me. And of course the fact that he does it really poorly.

There's some things you must know when reading Goodkind. First, Richard is always right. Any action, no matter how atrocious or downright wrong, is always right when Richard or Kahlan does it. Any act of brutality justified, anything he says will come to pass, and the exact opposite applies to the villains. They are always wrong and evil incarnate simply because Richard/Terry says so, even if their actions are near identical to Richard and Kahlan's.

Second, just about every foe will be a strawman proxy for an opposing political ideology. They'll be blatantly obvious, incredibly simplistic and outright dumb in their explanation and portrayal of the philosophy. They'll do things like makes speeches about why fire is evil...and actually convince people of this absurd 'fact', and only someone with the 'moral clarity' of Richard will see through this 'clever' ruse. They'll be evil generally because Richard says they are, and in case you're not clubbed over the head hard enough with the rightness of objectivism and wrongness of everything else, Terry will probably have them rape and murder small children just to reinforce that point.

His stories are riddled with absurd speeches, lame strawmen, false dichotomies, and any other bit of shit rhetoric he can find to drive the point home that all other political philosophies are wrong. And in case you have any doubt, the ultimate Gary Stu Richard will usually tell you they're wrong. And of course we need no further proof than that. And if you still have doubts, have no fear...the story will inevitably work out in a fashion that proves Richard was right all along. No matter how contrived the resolution or how absurd the other characters acts and reactions, the outcome will reinforce Terry's ideology...logical progression and organic storytelling be damned.


An author's politics often will come through to some extent in ones work, sometimes consciously sometimes not. I generally don't have a problem with that. But if they're going to turn the novel into a vehicle for propaganda, I insist that the author adequately test their theories with strong, thorough, and well thought out representations of opposing ideals. Terry does not do this. In fact he dumbs down, purposely misstates, grossly overgeneralizes, and paints with the blackest brush available any philosophy he purposely disagrees with. Its the height of intellectual dishonesty. His name should pop up in any dictionary search of disingenuous. There is no ambiguity in Goodkind's world. Things are good because he says they are and evil for the same reasons. If they're not evil enough, he'll have them engage in all manner of immoral perversions just to drive the point home.


I read these series conveniently after reading both "The Fountainhead" and "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand, the creator, so to speak, (she was the first to write it down, atleast) of objectivism. This was entirely by coincidence, but I still found the obviousness of his assertions towards objectivism to b e interesting, to say the least.

Ayn Rand did the same thing, though her books were much more based on philosophical ideology than action mixed in with speeches about how your personal life is the epitome of importance.

Nevertheless, I found the books to be mildly entertaining, in a condescending sort-of-way. I enjoyed thinking that the writer obviously had no regard towards an intelligent audience when he decided to create the series, and the plot was simplistic and repetitive. I still wish to finish the series, simply for closure.
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Dec 9 2007 11:30pm
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Ayn Rand did the same thing, though her books were much more based on philosophical ideology than action mixed in with speeches about how your personal life is the epitome of importance.


I toyed with the idea of reading Atlas Shrugged. But somewhere between 1,000+ pages and '54 page speech by John Galt' I decided to pass. Not that I can't tackle a long book (I've read WoT, much to my neverending regret), but I'll be damned if I'm gonna trudge through 1,000 pages of pseudo-philosophy masquerading as a novel. If you're writing a story, than serve the story first. If you're writing a political diatribe, than e-mail me the shortened essay version. And there is no story that is served by the part time protagonist pontificating about his own brilliance for 54 uninterrupted pages.

I presume Ayn Rand is a better writer and all around more intelligent than Goodkind because...

A: Terry really isn't a good writer. and
B: She started the damned cult...and generally the cult-leaders are smarter than their 'huddled masses' fanatical following.

Still doesn't mean I'd ever bother reading her.
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Dec 11 2007 02:46pm
keep em up y'all

i'm loving the entertainment of reading all this...my wife even logs on to see what y'all wrote!
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Dec 14 2007 09:55am
Quote (AchillesHK @ Tue, Dec 4 2007, 06:10pm)


Second, just about every foe will be a strawman proxy for an opposing political ideology. They'll be blatantly obvious, incredibly simplistic and outright dumb in their explanation and portrayal of the philosophy. They'll do things like makes speeches about why fire is evil...and actually convince people of this absurd 'fact', and only someone with the 'moral clarity' of Richard will see through this 'clever' ruse. They'll be evil generally because Richard says they are, and in case you're not clubbed over the head hard enough with the rightness of objectivism and wrongness of everything else, Terry will probably have them rape and murder small children just to reinforce that point.


Absurd 'fact'? The masses will believe anything when their lives or freedom is threatened. These absurd ‘facts’ or propaganda have revolutionized the world we live in today. Through out history examples of this are, The Crusades, Salem Witch Trials, The Holocaust and for something more recent, the hunt for weapons of mass destruction.

Fantasy books are as good or bad as your imagination, regardless of how it is written. How can you truly enjoy life when you analyze and critique everything?

This post was edited by darken99 on Dec 14 2007 09:55am
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Dec 14 2007 04:04pm
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Absurd 'fact'? The masses will believe anything when their lives or freedom is threatened. These absurd ‘facts’ or propaganda have revolutionized the world we live in today. Through out history examples of this are, The Crusades, Salem Witch Trials, The Holocaust and for something more recent, the hunt for weapons of mass destruction.


Got anything to add beyond a vague sentiment that essentially says and expresses nothing? The 'evil brother' was a strawman proxy tossed in to represent the inherent evilness of collectivist philosophies and the questionable notion that people are all stupid lemmings that will follow any ridiculous idea that's put in front of them. It fails (amongst other reasons) because people have used and understood fire since the earliest dawn of civilization. They know what it is, know what it does, and have countless personal experiences and examples of its utility and usefulness. They're not gonna be persuaded that its suddenly evil because some schmuck makes a speech. Mysticism and paranoia typically arises over things that cannot be adequately explained...fire can be. While trying to illustrate his own belief that people are stupid, Goodkind far overstates the point. And what might have been a valid point in a different context (that people are easily duped morons) becomes laughably stupid instead.

Quote
Fantasy books are as good or bad as your imagination, regardless of how it is written. How can you truly enjoy life when you analyze and critique everything?


Fantasy books...as well as all other books and forms of entertainment are as good or bad as the storyteller makes them. One of the means of determining their quality is through intelligent analysis and critique. I enjoy quality entertainment. I do not enjoy crap. And I don't see how being ignorant of what is or is not crap in any way heightens enjoyment. Nor do I see how an ability and willingness to explain why something is crap should be considered some sort of character flaw.
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Dec 14 2007 09:12pm
Fire in our world can be explained. We are in a technological age with insurmountable information at our finger tips. In the story, they are in a simple village, where people look to their leader, Richards’s brother for guidance. With rhetoric and propaganda, any leader can get the general population see their ideologies. This is not because they are stupid, they just don’t know better or are too scared to act otherwise. In history, the earth is flat and in the center of the universe and if you thought otherwise, you were tried for heresy and burned at the stake. Saying that fire can’t be mystical in a fictional story would be a fallacy. If you think otherwise, I would avoid J.-H. Rosny Aîné’s, Quest for Fire. I fear it imposible for you to conceptualize a race unable to make it.
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