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Oct 6 2010 08:54pm
Quote (Solarves @ Oct 6 2010 06:52pm)
You're forgetting the legacy Minolta glass. Some of the best glass I've used during my film days.

Do you think Pro's are confined to only using primes?? Most of the pros I know or know of, who are making thousands if not hundreds of thousands in photography a year do over 80% of their work with fast zooms.

What gets me is you admit to not even wanting to research the Sony product and that you have derived your conclusion from "dominated" C+N forums ... and therefore "know enough" and can suggest to someone else without having any first hand knowledge.

It's not just you though, there are plenty here blinded by marketing and heavily influenced by spec sheets than actual field use of different systems.

If one wanted only primes he'd shoot medium format which has better image quality than ANY 35mm camera today.

Also you never even asked what the guy's purpose was. You just said "stay away from" then followed it up with "[because these are MY REASONS AND MY NEEDS]."

And who's to say Sony or Zeiss doesn't have more Primes in the line-up??

Just because Nikon and Canon have the best marketing of all the camera guys, don't make them the ideal for every situation and for everyone's needs.

If there were only wheat bread and white bread it'd be a pretty dull world.


Oh lord. I see you are a Sony/Minolta user huh. Well you seem like a nice guy so I really hate to argue with you. How about we agree to disagree? :p
It's not really that I know absolutely nothing about Sony and Minolta products at least I have read the reviews on A900 and A850.
Aren't most of the older Minolta lenses manual and can be used on other cameras through an adapter?
I do agree that many of the Canon and Nikon users are blinded by marketing especially after the discussion I had with a few of them about the new Canon EOS 60D
which I seriously dislike lol. The reason why I advised him to stay away from Sony is my impression that Sony seems to mainly focus on entry level cameras and not
enough on the upper level. The new SLT A55 is exciting, that's for sure but it comes with a price of reduced light transmission onto the sensor.
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Oct 7 2010 12:15am
Quote (Futurama @ Oct 6 2010 06:54pm)
Oh lord. I see you are a Sony/Minolta user huh. Well you seem like a nice guy so I really hate to argue with you. How about we agree to disagree? :p
It's not really that I know absolutely nothing about Sony and Minolta products at least I have read the reviews on A900 and A850.
Aren't most of the older Minolta lenses manual and can be used on other cameras through an adapter?
I do agree that many of the Canon and Nikon users are blinded by marketing especially after the discussion I had with a few of them about the new Canon EOS 60D
which I seriously dislike lol. The reason why I advised him to stay away from Sony is my impression that Sony seems to mainly focus on entry level cameras and not
enough on the upper level. The new SLT A55 is exciting, that's for sure but it comes with a price of reduced light transmission onto the sensor.


Actually I am not a Sony user. I sold all my Minolta stuff when they sold to Sony because I don't like Sony products - but that's just my personal bias (notice I try to keep my own opinion out of it?).

But I am NOT biased as to which type of hammer I user to knock a nail down. Know what I mean??

As for Sony focusing on entry level cameras ... it's no different than Olympus focusing on the PEN cameras.

The very people Sony (and others) are targeting are consumers and first time buyers and this is logical for the smaller player in the bigger game. When a person buys into a system they often will follow the upgrade path as their hobby becomes more serious. As Sony, Olympus, Pentax, Panny, etc. are all lower share market holders, they each wish to increase their market shares. Some offer different types of innovative products, some produce smaller cameras and lenses as some people don't want to carry a two foot long zoom lens and a 12 pound camera.

So what you have is a focusing on such things as entry level gear because 98% of their sales is in the entry and mid level cameras. For every 20, 50, 100 (I don't know the stat) entry level cameras sold from XYZ camera maker, they sell 1-2 pro cams. Mathematically, makes sense to target entry level when you are trying to increase your market share.

So the strategy: capture more market share and gain users, release the occasional "top of the line" to keep your pros happy and to maintain an upgrade path. More market share = a profitable business, something Minolta failed to do.

This post was edited by Solarves on Oct 7 2010 12:15am
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Oct 7 2010 01:02am
Quote (Solarves @ Oct 7 2010 12:15am)
Actually I am not a Sony user. I sold all my Minolta stuff when they sold to Sony because I don't like Sony products - but that's just my personal bias (notice I try to keep my own opinion out of it?).

But I am NOT biased as to which type of hammer I user to knock a nail down. Know what I mean??

As for Sony focusing on entry level cameras ... it's no different than Olympus focusing on the PEN cameras.

The very people Sony (and others) are targeting are consumers and first time buyers and this is logical for the smaller player in the bigger game. When a person buys into a system they often will follow the upgrade path as their hobby becomes more serious. As Sony, Olympus, Pentax, Panny, etc. are all lower share market holders, they each wish to increase their market shares. Some offer different types of innovative products, some produce smaller cameras and lenses as some people don't want to carry a two foot long zoom lens and a 12 pound camera.

So what you have is a focusing on such things as entry level gear because 98% of their sales is in the entry and mid level cameras. For every 20, 50, 100 (I don't know the stat) entry level cameras sold from XYZ camera maker, they sell 1-2 pro cams. Mathematically, makes sense to target entry level when you are trying to increase your market share.

So the strategy: capture more market share and gain users, release the occasional "top of the line" to keep your pros happy and to maintain an upgrade path. More market share = a profitable business, something Minolta failed to do.


and there you are defending Sony :p :D ;) jk
I guess you are right at least to some extent. Though it comes down to the user him/herself to decide whether he/she wants to get serious with photography and how fast that person want to or able to progress.
Personally I believe those who don't want to get too serious or don't want to spend too much should take a serious look at Sony because the sheer amount of beginner DSLR they release every year and
the amount they are offering and indeed they offer some very exciting products like the new SLT cameras and Nex-5 large sensor compact. Believe me I don't want to walk around with huge ass cameras either
which is why I never bought battery grips and probably never will and hopefully never will get those enormous 1D or D3 either. My current equipment weighing between 4-5 lb each are the heaviest I want to walk
around with and are already pain in the butt from time to time. Now Olympus Pen cameras are quite exciting as well and if I ever will want a compact camera again I will definitely get either that or Panasonic GF1.

haha call me ignorant but I would care less about what kind of product they can make the most profit out of even though I know they directly affect the quality of product the manufacturers offer :P

:D btw what equipment do you use? Man! It seems you have been into this for a long time because Sony acquired Minolta quite long ago :O

This post was edited by Futurama on Oct 7 2010 01:02am
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Oct 7 2010 07:47am
Quote (Futurama @ Oct 6 2010 11:02pm)
and there you are defending Sony :p :D ;) jk
I guess you are right at least to some extent. Though it comes down to the user him/herself to decide whether he/she wants to get serious with photography and how fast that person want to or able to progress.
Personally I believe those who don't want to get too serious or don't want to spend too much should take a serious look at Sony because the sheer amount of beginner DSLR they release every year and
the amount they are offering and indeed they offer some very exciting products like the new SLT cameras and Nex-5 large sensor compact. Believe me I don't want to walk around with huge ass cameras either
which is why I never bought battery grips and probably never will and hopefully never will get those enormous 1D or D3 either. My current equipment weighing between 4-5 lb each are the heaviest I want to walk
around with and are already pain in the butt from time to time. Now Olympus Pen cameras are quite exciting as well and if I ever will want a compact camera again I will definitely get either that or Panasonic GF1.

haha call me ignorant but I would care less about what kind of product they can make the most profit out of even though I know they directly affect the quality of product the manufacturers offer :P

:D btw what equipment do you use? Man! It seems you have been into this for a long time because Sony acquired Minolta quite long ago :O


I use Olympus now ... mostly because the lenses from their kit lenses to their SHG (super high grade) are absolutely phenomenal. In addition, they have the best OOC jpegs which sometimes I need to have a fast turn around in event photography so this works well. I don't shoot high ISO unless I WANT more grain in which case I usually and shooting in B&W (or converting it later) ... (edit: their legacy glass is great too, they have some GREAT primes ... in fact you will sometimes see C/N users using Olympus primes with converters on their cams because they are THAT good, hell you could check out eebay and see some of them are STILL going for $1000's).

But to be honest, I've used Minolta and Nikon as well, along with a few other random brands. I don't really call myself part of any one brand's group. Since the Olympus stuff is a bit smaller in some regards it's more my carry round gear. I am looking at medium format to take over my studio stuff. I had thought about Nikon (or Canon) as well but thought, why move from 4/3's to FF when medium blows that away? For my own personal preferences, the 4/3's is fine and lighter (there are many advantages that I see and FEW disavantages) for everyday shooting and medium format for portrait sessions.

One of the things that I like about Olympus is that their lenses as said, are great. And for the money they are a bargain. Their cameras have been catching up to the greatness of their lenses which is good. I never felt limited in using them personally because I know HOW to use a camera to it's fullest. The PENs look fabulous and the reviews and the friends I have who use them swear by them, no more back aches, very portable and they churn out video and pictures, and have interchangeable lenses. I will likely buy the next model of Pen after the E-5 which will replace the E-3 - which I will have converted to infrared. I'll keep my trusty E-1 for JPEG shooting.

One thing that I think is kinda funny is that the Olympus lenses are made for a higher resolution than is even offered in their cameras. I think they can resolve up to around 20-25mb but its doubtful 4/3's would ever go this high (thank god because the photos already look great in print and on the web and my hard drive space is always limited). I've heard from numerous sources that the high megapickel cameras made by C/N/S have surpassed the resolution of the lenses they offer - this is from the mega pixel peepers (of which I am not). Many of these companies have admitted to the fact that the megapixel war is purely a marketing gimmick. Kinda like computers in a way, there were many computer wars in the early 1990's when they were starting to really get popular and affordable by everyone.

I have people who come to me who know nothing about photography and ask "wow how many megapixels is that?" lol .... People have been conditioned by marketing to think this > everything else. I must comment, what about IQ or DR?? Far more important than how many pixels you can cram into a sensor.

Anyway, I digress. I was not trying to pick a fight but until people have used multiple camera systems they shouldn't close the door because the gearheads and fanboys will burn you to a cross for thinking of going multi (on cameras).... ;)

This post was edited by Solarves on Oct 7 2010 07:48am
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Oct 7 2010 01:21pm
Quote (Futurama @ 7 Oct 2010 02:32)
Zeiss does make some very good manual focus primes but they are being offered in Canon and Nikon mounts as well
so they are not exclusive to just Sony.


http://www.photozone.de/sony-alpha-aps-c-lens-tests/381-zeiss_za_135_18

:drool:
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Oct 7 2010 03:48pm
Quote (Solarves @ Oct 7 2010 07:47am)
I use Olympus now ... mostly because the lenses from their kit lenses to their SHG (super high grade) are absolutely phenomenal. In addition, they have the best OOC jpegs which sometimes I need to have a fast turn around in event photography so this works well. I don't shoot high ISO unless I WANT more grain in which case I usually and shooting in B&W (or converting it later) ... (edit: their legacy glass is great too, they have some GREAT primes ... in fact you will sometimes see C/N users using Olympus primes with converters on their cams because they are THAT good, hell you could check out eeeeebay and see some of them are STILL going for $1000's).

But to be honest, I've used Minolta and Nikon as well, along with a few other random brands. I don't really call myself part of any one brand's group. Since the Olympus stuff is a bit smaller in some regards it's more my carry round gear. I am looking at medium format to take over my studio stuff. I had thought about Nikon (or Canon) as well but thought, why move from 4/3's to FF when medium blows that away? For my own personal preferences, the 4/3's is fine and lighter (there are many advantages that I see and FEW disavantages) for everyday shooting and medium format for portrait sessions.

One of the things that I like about Olympus is that their lenses as said, are great. And for the money they are a bargain. Their cameras have been catching up to the greatness of their lenses which is good. I never felt limited in using them personally because I know HOW to use a camera to it's fullest. The PENs look fabulous and the reviews and the friends I have who use them swear by them, no more back aches, very portable and they churn out video and pictures, and have interchangeable lenses. I will likely buy the next model of Pen after the E-5 which will replace the E-3 - which I will have converted to infrared. I'll keep my trusty E-1 for JPEG shooting.

One thing that I think is kinda funny is that the Olympus lenses are made for a higher resolution than is even offered in their cameras. I think they can resolve up to around 20-25mb but its doubtful 4/3's would ever go this high (thank god because the photos already look great in print and on the web and my hard drive space is always limited). I've heard from numerous sources that the high megapickel cameras made by C/N/S have surpassed the resolution of the lenses they offer - this is from the mega pixel peepers (of which I am not). Many of these companies have admitted to the fact that the megapixel war is purely a marketing gimmick. Kinda like computers in a way, there were many computer wars in the early 1990's when they were starting to really get popular and affordable by everyone.

I have people who come to me who know nothing about photography and ask "wow how many megapixels is that?" lol .... People have been conditioned by marketing to think this > everything else. I must comment, what about IQ or DR?? Far more important than how many pixels you can cram into a sensor.

Anyway, I digress. I was not trying to pick a fight but until people have used multiple camera systems they shouldn't close the door because the gearheads and fanboys will burn you to a cross for thinking of going multi (on cameras)....  ;)


Ah I am really a rookie compared to you then :blush:
So far I have only used Canon and read almost every review I could find about their line up or at least those that I think I may will need one day lol.
Yes I do have heard about those Olympus lenses in a Canon photography forum and it's actually something that I like about Canon I mean you can
use many of those old non-Canon lenses with an adapter on those EOS cameras even Nikon lenses :D
Wow so are you using digital MF or film? Well there are two things that scare me away from those medium format stuff, one is price and the other is
the size. I am an outdoor person and love the nature and all that so size does matter to me but at the same time I also want high quality gears so
I have to find a balance between these. As for the megapixel war I do see a clear difference when shooting the 10 mpixel 40D and the 15 mpixel
50D at least when using a high performance prime the extra resolution also allows me to crop a lot more and high ISO performance is quite important
to me since it helps freezing the action by using higher shutterspeed and it's something I am not satisfied with the 50D. All the manufacturers have
their weak spots and I believe Canon has at least one and it's a high speed full frame reasonably compact camera with good AF which Nikon has in
their D700. Sigh lol I wish I can print my own money so I can buy the best of each brand :lol:
hehe speaking of multi I have seen many Canon users also using the Pen's and they seem to love it because of it's small size and of course much
higher IQ compared to those crappy higher end Canon compacts and there are people out there who shoot both N & C :D or those who use Canon
with only Zeiss lenses :D

hmm about lenses again. I think there are a few Canon lenses that can handle those high density sensor cameras and they are releasing some really
exciting new lenses too. It will be interesting to see how my current 135 f2, 35 f1.4 and 24-70 f2.8 lenses will perform on a 21 mpixel 5D. Otherwise
I think you are totally right. I have seen people complaining about the IQ of their brand new 18 mpixel EOS 7D shooting with a crappy kit lens or any
other low end or mediocre lenses. I think it's pretty smart of Canon to force ppl to buy expensive high performance lenses to get most out of their
new cameras lol. Those bastards! :mad: haha I think Olympus is already at 14+ mpixels with their newly released Cameras and I am sure it will
only go up so one day you may will have to leave the 4/3 format and try to find a compact 1.6 crop or even FF. Maybe a Leica M9 :D

Quote (Antichrist- @ Oct 7 2010 01:21pm)


It's like what, 1/4 stop faster than the Canon version? :p
and they actually give the Canon lens a higher rating :p

This post was edited by Futurama on Oct 7 2010 03:49pm
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Oct 7 2010 06:06pm
Quote (Futurama @ 8 Oct 2010 00:48)
It's like what, 1/4 stop faster than the Canon version? :p
and they actually give the Canon lens a higher rating :p


its 1/3rd stop faster and people who have used both say that zeiss is slightly better in pretty much everything else than focus speed(some disagree on build quality, but its really similar). not to mention that you got image stabilizer with it when used with right body
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Oct 7 2010 08:14pm
[QUOTE=Futurama,Oct 7 2010 01:48pm I think Olympus is already at 14+ mpixels with their newly released Cameras and I am sure it will
only go up so one day you may will have to leave the 4/3 format and try to find a compact 1.6 crop or even FF. Maybe a Leica M9 :D

They haven't bought into the megapixels hype like most others. I don't think they will ever go above 14 ... At least not in the next 5 years.

Remember Ansel Adams had to pack some serious gear to get his shots. Yep, it weighed more than the FF Canon set-up. ;)




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Oct 8 2010 01:01pm
i mean i think you guys all have very valid points, and ofc you can always get different models and lens's that will be "better" than what ever gear i have, i think with a few decent zeiss lens and a sony alpha, i can still make beautiful pictures and enjoy photography with.

i'm just not sure the a55 is the one for me. its actually super cheap and under my budget for my new camera, when i sell off my nikon gear i should have around £2000 + the £2000 i have saved for my upgrade. the a55 is £600 so i could get 3 zeiss lens's in reality. but i just don't know if its a mistake or not. maybe i should look at sony's ff 850 or 900 but again then maybe i should get a 5d mii or d700, but i want to go away from nikon so that i try some thing new.

i think lens's are a priority and i think the sony range is ok for me i don't need dozens of lens for every purpose. And i worry that a new realise will come out and instantly lower the value. i have owned 2 nikons and have always bought older models (cheaper) and currently use a d200.
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