Hello all,

Let me begin by saying I absolutely love mediators and the work they do on our behalf keeping us safe while trading - all out of the goodness of their hearts. So please don't take this as an affront to them! I do think an additional system could be added that could free up resources and overall make trading safer though - which would be a win. So please bear with me (this is sort of long) and read though all that I am proposing before voting

The system I have in mind is essentially modeled on the existing way mediations with real life mediators already works in games like PoE. In trades like these the mediator never actually joins the game and handles items (like they do in D2 trades.) Instead the mediator makes contact with both parties, gathers their in game names and account info, swaps info and then holds the buyer's fg while the trade is made. After which the two traders simply tell the mediator the trade was done and the fg is sent to the seller. All the safeguarding of the trade - i.e. s/s's are done by the actual traders because the mediator, again, doesn't join the game.

I am proposing an automated version of this, following the same exact steps. The benefit of making this automated is huge though. The biggest reason I don't use a mediator for most of my trades is because of the time it takes to get a mediator to respond to a request and I don't think I'm an exception. Over the years, this wait time has gotten better and better - but even waiting 5-10 minutes can be too long for most people to wait. An auto-mediator would be instantaneous - and could feasibly be used by everyone on every trade without wait time - unless they decided they wanted to not use it (again this is just an added option not forced) or use a real life mediator. If the system is easy enough to use - people will choose to use it rather than making risky trades to save time which will save lots of people from ultimately getting scammed.



So how would it work in practice?

An added button "request auto-mediator" would be added at the top of each seller's trade thread next to the normal "request mediator" (pictured below).

1) Clicking the button directs you to a "request fg" page. There you fill in the buyer's jsp name, info about the trade and the amount you two have agreed to sell/buy for. Completing the form directs a "request" message to the user you have indicated.
2) The buyer receives the "request" via pm. The pm contains a link to a page where the buyer can look though the information the seller has just filled in. He can verify the requested trade's terms and information is correct, see the trade thread the request has originated from. He can hit accept if he agrees to the amount of fg the seller has indicated. There will also be a decline button, the seller can refuse the trade's terms if they do not match terms the two parties have already discussed.
3) After the buyer has agreed - a message is sent to both the buyer and seller requesting the usual information - their ign and in game account names. The information is logged by JSP for use in step #4.
4) All information has been agreed to and info exchanged - at this point the forum bank automatically deducts the amount of fg from the buyer both parties agreed to and holds it. The system sends out a pm to each party listing the other trader's provided ign/account name and directs them to complete the trade.
5) The system automatically sends out "completed trade" verification pms to both parties (I will return to this at step #7)
6) The two parties conduct the trade as they normally would taking s/s's.
7) Having completed the trade each party returns to JSP and presses the "trade complete" button provided to them from step #5. After both parties do this the fg that was banked by JSP is automatically sent to the seller. (One party pressing the button automatically pauses the timer* (check note 1 below).)
8) Trade completed

* Note 1 - A timer would open up showing the amount of fg held by the bank and time remaining to do the trade (during step #5) on the completion form. I think a timer of 20-30 minutes could suffice here, but Id be open to your thoughts if this should be longer or shorter. Essentially, the idea is that after the trade is started the buyer's fg is banked and he has effectively lost control of it until the trade is completed. If the seller then decides to go afk for a day there would need to be a mechanism to automatically return the buyer's fg to him allowing him to trade elsewhere. So I would proposed a time frame after which, if the trade hasn't been completed, it simply expires and fg is returned. The buyer and seller could later make a new request if they choose to.

** Note 2 - I am advocating that security for the trade stay the responsibility of both traders, as it exists using the current mediation system in PoE. That is to say that screenshots will prove if the trade has been done or not. First, it would be feasible the seller would try to scam the buyer by pressing the "trade completed" button when no item was exchanged. The buyer would have a button available to "dispute trade" which would automatically create a scammer accusation thread. He would then need to, as he does normally, provide s/s's proving no trade happened and a moderator would have to manually release the fg being held by the bank back to him if the mod finds no item was exchanged. Second, the buyer could instead try to scam the seller by refusing to press the "trade completed" button after the item was handed over. Similar to the last scenario the seller would have a "dispute trade" button that would direct him to a scammer accusation thread. He would need to provide s/s's showing he did trade the item before a moderator was able to manually release the banked fg he is owed over to him. Obviously abusing the system would incur harsh penalties/lock to dissuade people from trying to scam one another. Scamming will still happen - that is unavoidable - all I am advocating is a system that makes scamming much tougher to do.


So - long read huh? Essentially this is the same exact system we have now with real life mediators, simply faster and more efficient. Speed is really the key. If the system is easy and quick to use many more people will use it, and trade safer. The only reason why people don't use mediators for all trades now - despite that being the safest thing they could do - is because waiting for one is time consuming and people are impatient. This will keep people from engaging in risky behaviors (sending first and getting scammed) solely because they don't want to wait for a mediator. Besides the overall better experience for users on JSP (getting scammed far less often), JSP itself will benefit - it can redirect resources to other things - less time spent by mods on scammer accusations - could instead be used elsewhere.

Again, this would be an added system - you would still be able to just send fg to users as you do now and could still do trades with real life mediators as well.

Sorry for the long post, but I just wanted give a thorough explanation of what I'm talking about.

If you vote I would appreciate your reasoning behind it!

Behold my shitty paint skills:



This post was edited by Furdtarmer on Jun 23 2019 05:57am

Long ago I proposed that all trades happen like this by default:
1. You begin a transaction, which freezes the fg involved.
2. Once both parties confirm that the trade has happened, the fg is transferred to the recipient.

This is quite similar to what you're proposing, but for some reason everyone was quite heavily against the idea.

Hi, Furdtarmer! Your suggestion is impressive, in particular it's length is notable, and it contains a lot of information about advantages, you must have spent a lot of time writing it. I did not notice any downsides of your idea, so that I voted yes in a poll especially in case of it being optional, although I am having some problems understanding it, my main concern would be whether it really makes scamming harder for those who are determined to do it.


When I traded myself, it was mostly due to low values of items involved, also from my experience all the users were nice and no problems were happening. Anyway, I have a link to proper guide in my signature, and encouraging others to make use of it whenever they want to. I will try to fully understand your suggestion and maybe discuss it once more in the future. I think that post #2 contains something similar to what you propose in a big shortcut, for now I don't see any disadvantages (I tried to find Leevee's suggestion, but with no success). Good luck with results of voting

I think people often vote no for suggestions that are just improvements to a system that already exists. So someone might suggest a "bump" button in the topic tracker - because that makes sense and would streamline things - but would get a no because the ability to bump already exists as a button within each thread, for example. Mediators definitely work and using them is the only safe way to trade on JSP, the problem is that people often choose not to use them - and not because they don't want to trade safely but because the current system isnt built to be used easily enough. Using a mediator is a burden that impatient people simply avoid because of the wait - so im suggesting is a faster version of an existing system. People could choose not to use it in the end but faster mediations means more people using mediations and more people using a mediation is always better.



It would separate the trade and keep fg out of the hands of the seller until both parties agree the trade is complete, just as mediation exists now. So in that way a potential scammer has no ability to take your fg and run before you get your item.




To be honest this suggestion isn't really for me as I often beat users by 2/3 or 3/3 and go second. I do think it would be very useful for new users though. Anyway, you'd be able to choose to use it or not, so if you prefer to just send first/second you could keep doing that.

People always insist on the "Always call a Mediator for your trades. This is the only way to do a 100% safe trade." trope - but they must acknowledge that when the safe route is only being used >5% of the time, there's a problem with it. It should be easier and faster to use to attract more people to trade safer. Its just not reasonable to use mediators for 100% of your trades on JSP even though that is the safe option.

Thanks for the input

This post was edited by Furdtarmer on Jun 23 2019 07:56am

Bump

Yes, as all the no voters never put any reason i would say they do not count.
I would use this for big trades.

Bump

No, doesn't fix the issue of not enough meds for this idea to be effective
And no med wants to stare at a queue


#MedsArePeopleToo

This post was edited by Penguins0690 on Jun 26 2019 05:23pm

What?

I feel like you didn’t actually read what I wrote but decided to vote no anyway. No real life people are required the entire process is automated.

This post was edited by Furdtarmer on Jun 27 2019 12:50am

No, it's not. A mediator will -- at a key point during most mediations -- hold both, item(s) and forum gold, thus channeling the complete trade.
You propose an automated system where only the FG transaction gets "mediated", with several apparent ways to cause trouble down the road.

I'm aware that e.g. Path of Exile and Runescape mediations are an exception to the above rule, and an automated system could in fact work here.
However, if things go wrong, I think it's much better to directly interact with an emphatic human providing the correct guidance, immediately...