this isn't gambling since there is no monetary value in forum gold, "selling" forurm gold is illegal in itself, because it's selling the properrty of njaguar

here's an example

a family buys a home poker kit, which includes chips and etc

if they play for no money value on the chips, then it is not illegal because it isn't "gambling" since there isn't any monetary gain or loss as an outcome

if this is illegal, than the lottery/raffle would be as well

you have to pay some % of ur profit from gambling if njag want to have gamble on this site, he'd have to pay, he dont want that

that's what i've heard

Raffles fall under a different catagory, so the legalities of gambling don't apply. Raffles are held all over the U.S. by countless different businesses, clubs, charities, etc etc, even different stores for their customers, and none of them are subject to gambling laws and required to obtain gambling licenses. Yeah, I'm not knowledgeable as to the specifics, but they're obviously classified differently.

Since Paul sells fg it could be determined that he is profiting from gambling, and whether this is true technically or not, gray areas in law are often left to interpretation, and I think he just doesn't want to take any chances.

it is only legally allowed to be called a raffle because there is no currency put into it

just like in raffles at fairgrounds and shit like that, it is conidered a donation, they give you a ticket as proof of your donation, that's how they legally allow minors to be in a school raffle and etc

paul doesn't sell fg, in the site disclaimer it SPECIFICALLY says that the fg is always, and always will be, his property

he is giving forum gold for site donations,

so when you donate to the site, you receive either

1. eligibility to interact with the donor forums

2. forum gold, which cannot be turned into currency legally


paul is a smart guy, he knows what's within his boundaries

donate for me thread
though im sure he(Paul) use the same loophole you mentioned above (if it ever fell under scrutiny)

Like I said before, I don't know any of the specific details regarding the laws that cover this, but...

There has got to be more to it than this, because I've seen raffle tickets sold for all different sorts of things, and at all sorts of different places, and they were sold for real money. I've even seen them sold at local supermarkets, and I know they don't have any special gambling permits. For some reason, some technicality or whatever, they're just apparently not subject to the same laws.


That disclaimer is for the specific purposes of protecting his right to confiscate and restrict access to fg, and to protect him from potential debt liability in doing so. However, although that disclaimer may be sufficient in that capacity it's likely not applicable to gambling law.

Again, I don't know the specifics of the laws myself because I've never had any desire or reason to research them, but like you said, Paul is a smart guy, and you can bet that he has a very good reason for his policy.


Forum gold can't be converted to legal currency directly, but it does in fact have monetary value in that it can be used to purchase real life items in the donor forum. It can also effectively be used to trade for real currency in the donation process. And even if the potential for monetary gain didn't exist for the users of this site, the profit that the site itself makes as a result of the gambling that takes place is still a reality.


I agree, but the number of laws in this country is vast, with most of them being very complicated nature, and often multifaceted, making it difficult for even lawyers to fully understand them. I'm pretty sure that Paul acquired legal advice regarding this issue, and that he formed his policy of not officially supporting gambling as a result of that advice.

from what i've seen the only raffles from store/companies are for employees and it involves sales


the rest of the "raffles" ive seen have an age limit of 21(legal gambling age in america) so even though they are called a raffle, it's legally gambling

a raffle is pretty much gambling but replacing monetary gain/loss

with a gain of an item, but no loss of monetary value(the money spent "BUYING" the raffle ticket is always a donation towards something, in my experience at least)

and no, non-monetary value vs. irl items such as the donor forum isn't the same as using a legal form of currency,


it's more like bartering, say for example fish vs. cattle

also a side note, people cannot buy irl trade items with boughten or "gambled" fg




he isn't receiving money for donating fg though, he's simply receiving the status of a donor, it's kind of like selling girl scout cookies

This post was edited by TR0LL on Dec 23 2010 11:45am

Oh I've definitely seen various different types of raffles over the years which weren't specific to emplyees of the business/organization. There may have been age limits on them, I don't recall, but I personally don't think age is the primary issue in this case, or at least not the sole issue. Although it still happens on a large scale due to enforcement difficulties, in actuality internet gambling is effectively illegal in the united states as a result of laws which prohibit financial transactions by and/or with online gambling businesses.


Yes, but items still hold monetary value though. The I.R.S. places a monetary value on items, and requires that taxes be paid on acauired items according this monetary value. If you win a car in a raffle, you're still required to pay taxes on the value of that car.


I'm aware that this is true in a practical sense, but legally, according to gambling as pertains to this situations specifically, that's likely not the case.


Yes, but even trades such as this are subject to tax laws, suggesting that it is still legally viewed as a monetary gain. Legal definitions are very seldom synonymous with definitions you'd find in an actual dictionary. They are two seperate things.

There are no taxes specifically on money. Tax law always indicate that what's being taxed are things like "income," "inheritance," etc etc, all of which can come in the form of many other things besides actual currency. Again, if you have a house that I want, and we make a deal that I will trade a certain number of years of labor for the house, I will still be responsible to pay taxes on the equivilent monitary value of the house. When you see people trading items, and trading labor for items and not paying taxes on what they recieve, that's not because they're pretected by some special law, it's just that they are getting away with it because it's difficult to enforce.


I understand that, but there's no actual legal significance to this. That's a rule that Paul has established for unrelated issues, and are not necessarily going to be sufficient according to gambling law. Numerous times in the past people have tried to use loopholes like this to get around certain laws, and they're on to it, and as a result legal definitions are always being modified. They don't always go out of their way to make these changes known to the public either, as it's the publics responsibility to keep themselves current on laws.





I'm more specifically referring to when people pay other people fg for them to do a cash donation in their name. Again, according to the way Paul has it worded in is rules, I may never be receiving actual legal currency in this process, but it may be seen differently than this from the perspective of authorities and according to their laws. Again, it's hard to say without reading through the entire law.



Again, I'm just basing my estimation of the situation on observations I've made throughout the years, and not on any specific knowledge I have of the specific law governing this. But as we've both already agreed, Paul is smart, and there's a very good reason why he has decided not to "officially" support gambling, but yet still allow it to occur, and I'm betting that it's based on legal advice he's received.

It's unfortunate that active really means nothing on this forum.

It's intended to let people know that you're an active bettor. What should it mean beyond that?