Quote (HaikenEdge @ Mon, 19 Jan 2009, 02:17)

I think SQUARE did the right thing in Final Fantasy VIII by placing the ultimate in flexibility in the hands of the player,

Quote (HaikenEdge @ Mon, 19 Jan 2009, 05:06)

True. Although, I must admit, I posted something similar on GameFAQs once, and that led to a flame war between FFVII and FFVIII fanboys.

Quote (HaikenEdge @ Mon, Jan 19 2009, 02:51am)

Bite me; I'm studying game design, so breaking down how games are designed are an interest of mine.

Quote (rageofaeon @ Mon, Jan 19 2009, 05:31am)

Do you have a link for this? Or can you sum up the discussion in a few sentences?

Quote (Vio-Lewis @ Mon, Jan 19 2009, 07:07am)

Cool. I'm currently studying Computer Game Technology. It's more to do with the creation of computer games though (programming, maths, and physics), but we still look at the design of games too, although probably not in as much depth as someone on a Computer Game Design course.

I agree with your points about FFVIII's gameplay. The junction system coupled with the refinement system was very innovative as it was something that hadn't been done in an RPG before. I felt that it was a refreshing change from the gameplay of old. It basically took FFVI's system to the next level by giving the player more control through the junctioning of stats.

However, I felt that it maybe gave the players a bit too much control. If a player became familiar with the junction system, they could overpower their character right at the start of the game. This was a definite problem in all previous Final Fantasy games, but it was to a much bigger extent in FFVIII.

I liked having this control over my characters though. Every time I played through the game, I could try something different, and was not restricted to the exact same character progression every time. It may have made the game easier (if, and only if, you were familiar with the system already), but for me, the real fun came from messing around with all the different combinations of abilities and junctions.

A lot of the long terms fans of the series, however, are afraid of change. They like the series the way it is, and are afraid in case Square completely and utterly mess up a perfectly alright series of games (some would argue they already have with FFXII or even FFX). The old level-based system is something they know and love, and is a safe bet. I am personally ready for change though. The level-based systems are getting a bit old for me now. I can see why people would want it to stay the same though (it's a safe bet for them).

Quote (HaikenEdge @ Mon, Jan 19 2009, 04:00pm)

It's good to have logical discourse regarding gaming; personally, I hate programming, and while I can do it, I prefer to focus on the way players interact with the game's rules themselves, primarily focusing on gameplay and GUI design and leaving the nitty-gritty of the programming to others.

I do agree that Final Fantasy VIII's Junction, Draw and Refine system can easily be abused by players who know what they're doing; this was offset, slightly, by the developers decision to level the enemies along with the player characters. Doing this, however, removed almost all of the grinding commonly found in previous entries in the Final Fantasy franchise from Final Fantasy VIII, and while players could grind their characters to level 100, it was no longer necessary, as a player who was familiar with the system could strategically junction their magic and refine items to provide their characters with the tactical edge required to win any encounter with minimal expenditure of resources, which is the ultimate goal for efficient players.

I agree with your enjoyment of the game's flexibility regarding character progression, although this may come from the fact I've beaten Final Fantasy VIII a total of twenty times, each time using a different build and progression for each of the characters. The most satisfying of these run throughs would be the time I completely converted Zell into a caster despite his brawler archetype and turned Quistis into a physical beast, using her Mighty Guard limit break in conjunction with high physical stats to blow through enemies.

I agree with your point regarding long-time fans preferring the status quo. However, as an aspiring game designer, I'm always looking forward to seeing how games evolve and developers innovate, so to me, having a franchise's title remain the same is only proof that the developers have become stagnant.

Speaking of which, out of curiousity, in what order would you rank the Final Fantasy games you've played through completely, regarding your preference to them?

Quote (Vio-Lewis @ Mon, Jan 19 2009, 12:19pm)

Hmm, it's a tough decision. Something like this:

1. FFVIII
2. FFIX
3. FFVII
3. FFV
3. FFVI
3. FFX
4. FFXII
5. FFIV
6. FFI

I haven't completed II and III yet (I've started a playthrough of II though).

All the games are pretty close. I really can't decide between a lot of them since I like them all.

Quote (HaikenEdge @ Mon, Jan 19 2009, 04:00pm)

From a game design standpoint, Final Fantasy VIII featured some of the most, if not the most, innovative gameplay systems in the Final Fantasy franchise.

The decision to leave behind the level-based attribute-growth system used in all the previous Final Fantasy (aside from Final Fantasy II, which featured an organic growth system) in favor of the Junction system was a bold decision by SQUARE and was not one met by enthusiasm from all players. Likewise, the evolution of the summons found in previous games, which were simply retooled spells, into Guardian Forces was the natural evolution for the system to take following Final Fantasy VI's Esper system and was a step forward in the franchise's design, unlike Final Fantasy VII's Materia-based summons, which were a backwards step following the innovative magic-teaching Espers of FFVI; likewise, the decision to grant Guardian Forces additional abilities that could be used modularly was an excellent design decision that put flexibility into the hands of players.

Following 7 games utilizing the same MP-driven magic system, Draw system was a breath of fresh air into the game; combined with the Junction system, players were forced to make a decision: either junction powerful spells into key attributes to augment them greatly and suffering from those attributes being lowered when said spells were used, or junction lower-end spells into attributes but be able to freely use high-end magic. Likewise, the Refine system changed the way players acquired magic and items, turning almost anything dropped by enemies into something useful at any time, given the player had the correct Refine abilities available to them; furthermore, by allowing players to customize Guardian Forces through the application of items, SQUARE gave players the ability to choose how to equip their characters.

The card game within Final Fantasy VIII was a well-designed mini-game, frustrating at times and with a difficult learning curve, but players who mastered it often found it rewarding; I wasn't one of those people, so I kept playing the card game to a minimum. However, the amount of thinking that went into balancing and goes into playing the game is incredible, considering the plethora of rules that can the transported from one region to another, making careful planning necessary for players who wish to completely master the game. Compared to the mini-games that preceded this, namely the arcade available in FFVII, the card game in FFVIII has more depth than any that came before it.

Regarding the limit breaks, while some of them (such as Zell's Dual, Selphie's Slot and Quistis's Blue Magic) were natural evolutions of abilities from previous games, new abilities were also designed (Renzokuken, Combine/Angel Wing, Shot). While the evolved limit breaks took the previously existing abilities in directions previously unexpected, like Selphie's Slot, or combined previous abilities (Dual, which combined Sabin's Blitz and Tifa's limit break slots), the new limit breaks themselves are not without merit, as most of them featured gameplay elements previously unseen in the Final Fantasy franchise.

Final Fantasy VIII's story itself was nothing to write home about, particularly in that it shared many similar elements with other games in the Final Fantasy franchise, and this is something I admit freely. However, story aside, the game shows many innovative design elements that showed SQUARE capable of stepping away from many of the things it knew to try something different with it's big-name franchise, something it would do again in Final Fantasy X; even though the game wasn't greeted with as much love as many players give Final Fantasy VII, I believe, from the perspective of game design, it was the best Final Fantasy of the franchise thus far, with Final Fantasy X coming in second. However, I say this with bias, as Final Fantasy VIII is my favorite within the franchise, and, ultimately, I think SQUARE did the right thing in Final Fantasy VIII by placing the ultimate in flexibility in the hands of the player, rather than forcing the player to play the game in a way where they were shoehorned into using specific, pre-built strategies implemented by the designers.

But hey, what do I know? All I am is a university student studying game design.

Quote (AnomanderRake @ Mon, Jan 19 2009, 02:11pm)

Problem is, it was too easy to abuse. It didn't take a FF veteran at all, just someone who can learn things quickly, to make FF8 a walk in the park. I don't know about using summons (they're too powerful so I never used them) but it felt as though the game was made for those who couldn't use junctioning in a logical manner, because when you did, you could mow every monster down like dirt, and taking down bosses was a quickly ascertained repetitive pattern.

Innovation isn't always good. You have to test whether a certain innovation makes game mechanics more enjoyable before you throw it at the public. In my eyes, magic in FF8 was just another type of item, disposable stock you hold in your inventory; drawing is just "steal" with a much higher success rate, and every character is a thief. And instead of equipping armor and relics, you just equip items.

Oh and grinding is still a viable tactic in FF8, except you just grind for AP in this case.