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Nov 8 2016 12:09am
Quote (XxAdrielJeremiahGreebxX @ Nov 8 2016 12:02am)
dont forget

2x babbling books into exact answers (or 1/2 or 3 possibles) when he was down 3-1 in the series


Yup.
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Nov 8 2016 12:10am
Quote (Hepzibah @ Nov 7 2016 11:32pm)
I mean.. I'm not about to argue moba bs with you because I don't play enough of them.. -- but in terms of starcraft.. when the game opens you need to decide on a build -- your opponent without scouting can play into and or counter the build just blindly.. You can open with a random build and hope for success.
If I open spawning pool early gas vs your 3 hatchery - blind essentially - overlord scouts are kinda slow - youre going to lose everytime.. these decisions are made randomly at the start of a sc2 game
I imagine the person shotcalling - even with as much information as they can take in are often gambling//making a random rotation/switch up to single out or attempt to single out opponents.

being caught out of position while opponents are rotating around the map - Kripp would describe as bad RNG... or is this poor skill?

theres kind of a fine line -- That's where hs comes in


There is no fine line.
RNG means a specific thing based on the game generating outcomes.
Meaning choices are not included
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Nov 8 2016 02:17am
Quote (Hepzibah @ Nov 7 2016 10:32pm)
I mean.. I'm not about to argue moba bs with you because I don't play enough of them.. -- but in terms of starcraft.. when the game opens you need to decide on a build -- your opponent without scouting can play into and or counter the build just blindly.. You can open with a random build and hope for success.
If I open spawning pool early gas vs your 3 hatchery - blind essentially - overlord scouts are kinda slow - youre going to lose everytime.. these decisions are made randomly at the start of a sc2 game
I imagine the person shotcalling - even with as much information as they can take in are often gambling//making a random rotation/switch up to single out or attempt to single out opponents.

being caught out of position while opponents are rotating around the map - Kripp would describe as bad RNG... or is this poor skill?

theres kind of a fine line -- That's where hs comes in


If Starcraft II had only three viable builds that counter every other build, then yes, it would become rock paper scissors. But there are lots of choices. Being caught off guard while you're somewhere on a map does not amount to RNG. That is chance, but not random chance.

Remember, chance involves not knowing, and weighing controllable outcomes. In Starcraft II, you have full control over your choices, and over what chances you choose to take.

In Hearthstone, there is a significant amount of RANDOM chance. Things that you cannot CHOOSE. You can choose not to play RNG cards, or to play them at selective times in order to guide the RNG the way you want, but ultimately there are factors which you just cannot control. Knife juggler is a prime example.

Completely RNG-based cards can be interesting, but there's just too much of it, plain and simple. The problem is that RNG is built into the game. There is no stack (like in MTG), so RNG is a factor which keeps the game interesting without a stack. Fundamentally Hearthstone would be boring without RNG. I think what a lot of people aren't talking about is that the fundamental way Hearthstone was built just doesn't allow for as competitive a meta as people keep asking for.

What would be interesting is if Blizzard introduces some new card features that soft-introduce the stack into the game, thus increasing possibilities for non-RNG cards. Cards that provide your opponent a 20 second window to respond, for example. Such a card would pause the timer on a player's turn. An example could be a card that says "Deal 8 damage. Your opponent chooses the target"... or "Your opponent chooses whether to discard 2 cards, or lose 2 random minions." That's a super soft interaction, but they could build off of that premise and start making things a bit more complex as time goes on.

This post was edited by Canadian_Man on Nov 8 2016 02:20am
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Nov 8 2016 02:55am
Quote (Canadian_Man @ Nov 8 2016 02:17am)
If Starcraft II had only three viable builds that counter every other build, then yes, it would become rock paper scissors. But there are lots of choices. Being caught off guard while you're somewhere on a map does not amount to RNG. That is chance, but not random chance.

Remember, chance involves not knowing, and weighing controllable outcomes. In Starcraft II, you have full control over your choices, and over what chances you choose to take.

In Hearthstone, there is a significant amount of RANDOM chance. Things that you cannot CHOOSE. You can choose not to play RNG cards, or to play them at selective times in order to guide the RNG the way you want, but ultimately there are factors which you just cannot control. Knife juggler is a prime example.

Completely RNG-based cards can be interesting, but there's just too much of it, plain and simple. The problem is that RNG is built into the game. There is no stack (like in MTG), so RNG is a factor which keeps the game interesting without a stack. Fundamentally Hearthstone would be boring without RNG. I think what a lot of people aren't talking about is that the fundamental way Hearthstone was built just doesn't allow for as competitive a meta as people keep asking for.

What would be interesting is if Blizzard introduces some new card features that soft-introduce the stack into the game, thus increasing possibilities for non-RNG cards. Cards that provide your opponent a 20 second window to respond, for example. Such a card would pause the timer on a player's turn. An example could be a card that says "Deal 8 damage. Your opponent chooses the target"... or "Your opponent chooses whether to discard 2 cards, or lose 2 random minions." That's a super soft interaction, but they could build off of that premise and start making things a bit more complex as time goes on.


Things like Discover I find to be really good mechanics. Small little decisions throughout your turn. There's some RNG to it but it's not as bad or game deciding most of the time.
Secrets are pretty cool too.

This post was edited by FroggyG on Nov 8 2016 03:04am
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Nov 8 2016 07:03am
When discussing whether or not this game is about skill or rng, it really comes down to how evenly skilled the two opponents are. If they are 100% evenly skilled and play perfectly, then luck will determine the winner. The further they are in skill the less luck decides the winner.

It's called "the paradox of skill".
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Nov 8 2016 05:00pm
Half of these clips are just Pavel winning games with RNG LOL
And apparently instead of the "esports" meme people are calling it "pavelsports"



This post was edited by FroggyG on Nov 8 2016 05:01pm
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Nov 8 2016 05:20pm
Quote (FroggyG @ 8 Nov 2016 18:00)
Half of these clips are just Pavel winning games with RNG LOL
And apparently instead of the "esports" meme people are calling it "pavelsports"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrIqSTVuPVs


I can feel the anger within you.
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Nov 8 2016 05:23pm
golden icehowl from blizzcon packs thanks for the dust
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Nov 8 2016 06:54pm
Quote (Jaina @ Nov 8 2016 05:20pm)
I can feel the anger within you.


Why would you think I'm angry
This topic has no attachment to me lol

This post was edited by FroggyG on Nov 8 2016 07:01pm
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Nov 8 2016 07:19pm
Quote (mlbpro417 @ 8 Nov 2016 19:23)
golden icehowl from blizzcon packs thanks for the dust



Card getting buffed in patch notes .. Umad ?
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