See, this is the kind of reply i want in a discussion forum.
People who know what theyre talking about giving reasonable input on what you posted, stating their opinion and actually having an opinion you can take seriously. Those are the people i can have a serious discussion with, those are people i can respect
If youre noob, thats not a problem with me, if you want to play easy mode games and pub games only and dont take dota seriously, not a problem with me either. But i DO have a problem with it when while doing so, you present yourself as an expert on Dota in these forum and think youve got any clue of game balance etc. So decide for one or the other, either be a noob and SEARCH for opinions of better players or learn the game untill youre good enough to GIVE opinions.
Onto the essence of your post:
Quote (deathbypepsi @ Fri, 19 Jun 2009, 22:47)
Lion is often a direct counter to meepo. Counter ward quickly, and move into their jungle, by level 6 you will cripple meepos farm, as Lion+ basically anything can insta geib one of meepos clones. I agree that lion will never out-carry meepo, but in reality, he is one of the stronger counters.
Thats true. It wasnt what scimish was talking about, but its true nontheless. Obviously the weakpoint of meepo is his weakness to nukes, especially early on, and heros like Lion, Lina or Tinker provide great magical dmg output earlygame which make it hard for meepo to farm at his fullest potential. If he does manage to farm decently though, he will become a major pain in the ass, but delaying that is the actual task of a disable / nuker, not outcarrying him or farming for dagon ...
Quote (deathbypepsi @ Fri, 19 Jun 2009, 22:47)
Random clanwars hardly makes a player good or an expert, just wanted to point that out; I'm sure some kind of fallacy has been committed, but I'm can't remember which and I am to lazy to pick up a book atm
.
Obviously not, but it atleast gives insight into what the serious mindset is like. Also just losing 3-5 clanwars against midskill clans wont make them better players as of yet, but it can show them that their pub mentality isnt the be all end all. If you only play pubs and your lion dagon rush wins 100% of the games you play, you will come to the conclusion that its the strongest strategy there is. By going to another level of play and seeing how easy it is to counter such strategies, you are forced to rethink your way of playing as a whole...
Quote (deathbypepsi @ Fri, 19 Jun 2009, 22:47)
EM is vastly different from standard Dota, but it is still a mode offered for a reason. People enjoy it, and despite the bad reputation it gets, it is still part of the game. The game isn't balanced around EM, but the state of the game sure does effect the EM games.
Sad but true
Quote (deathbypepsi @ Fri, 19 Jun 2009, 22:47)
Also, I wouldn't push clanwars down the casual gamers throat. Dota pugs can be fun, and for some people that's all they want. If they want to get better just playing pubs, then they have the right to do so, and they should be encouraged in doing so. It is their time and their fun.
As i said above, i dont have a problem with casual gamers who just want to play dota for some fun. But those casuals shouldnt try to appear as DOTA experts when they dont even take their own matches seriously...
Quote (deathbypepsi @ Fri, 19 Jun 2009, 22:47)
Personally I find non-em games much more compelling, but it is quite obvious many don't share my opinion. It's kind of like trying new foods, you tend to stick to what you like and don't often give new things a try. Many players are sucked into Em from the get-go, and they often stay there. There isn't anything essentially wrong with that, but you could make an argument for which is better, but to be honest you sound more than a bit hostile and condescending, to me at least. There are actually a number of good articles on the subject in the dota-allstar forums.
Good articles + in Dota-Allstars Forum sounds like an oxymoron to me
Obviously many people are used to playing easy mode. There are 3 kinds of groups i would seperate them in and 3 ways i react to those
1) Casual Gamer, Knows hes Casual, Doesnt want it any other way. Possibly asks for some help or just keeps away from forums
Ill leave those guys alone or give them some advice etc. Sometimes when im in the mood ill point out that there are other more serious modes out there, but it depends
2) New players, want to get better, dont know any better
These people dont know any better and try to get good while being trapped in the noobish environment of easy mode games. Ill try to help them out of it and argue against EM if they are smart enough to accept that theyre worse players and they should accept help
3) Noobs, convinced of themselves, think theyre good while only playing pubs
Flamewar incoming. No respect at all for fools like this. Ill start with pointing out why they are wrong and that they dont know shit, often in a borderline rude way, but if they keep defending their shitty opinion, ill get very aggresive. This is also the state im in with Scimish, not only from this thread but from about 10 earlier threads, in all of which he posted complete bullshit while being extremely convinced of himself...
Quote (deathbypepsi @ Fri, 19 Jun 2009, 22:47)
Not to long ago he was a high tier hero. I would hardly call him a mega noob friendly hero, as he is a weak agility melee hero for a good chunk of the game, and wards/dust+ any half decent player will rock noob SA's world. If players can learn to rice by playing him, then they are indeed learning something, albeit a bit differently than normal, but many heroes play similarly for the first portion of the game.
Well he was before being majorly nerfed. Dust introduction, nerf to his passive, nerf to cloud etc.
Yes you can learn ricefarming from playing riki, but theres certainly better heros to learn it with (Morphling, new Sylla, Kunkka, SF)
Quote (deathbypepsi @ Fri, 19 Jun 2009, 22:47)
This is pretty close minded, as pudge is seeing more and more competitive play all the time. Storm is pretty item dependent, but he has a skillset that can back it up, and in anything but top league play you could probably use him with fairly good results.
Not sure if i missed that, but i havent seen him used in competitive games in a long time, lets not even talk about frequent... Storm was fine before, but he got an unncecessary nerf through bloodstone in 6.60 which was supposed to hit Krobe and Necro. ofc that isnt as much of a problem as long as 6.59 is the stable, but he still isnt THAT strong of a hero, but certainly upper mid-tier
Quote (deathbypepsi @ Fri, 19 Jun 2009, 22:47)
I think pudge is truly limited by the players who play him, similar to meepo, god good meepos are scary. Even top league players are usually absolutely terrible with him, but he is often just a farmed up tank in league play. I think his true potential lies within some godly pudge players who could hook blindfolded.
Its true that pudge is one of the skill limited heros, and so is meepo, but i personally think that theres more potential in meepo than pudge overall. Pudge is easily countered by some good uphill wards and he lacks lategame strenght. You would have to solo him to be effective, which severely hurts your team...
Quote (deathbypepsi @ Fri, 19 Jun 2009, 22:47)
Top tier is redefined all the time. A few months ago, if you said you wanted to use rhasta, people would have laugh at you and said he is worthless. CM/SK/Axe were similarly viewed for a long time, and not just because shifts in the meta. The reason units are "top picks" is because it takes time to find and make use of all the variables in a game such as this, and at a competitive level, veering to far off the beaten path can net you some loses. Just because certain heroes aren't use or look bad, doesn't necessarily mean they're worthless for beyond pubs.
I didnt say worthless, i said some are stronger than others in their role. And yes its true, metagame shifts both with hard changes (new versions) and soft changes (teams finding new strategies, utlizing heros differently). CM and Axe are weak examples imo, but SK, Rhasta, Bane and Abba really show the shift in playstyle. Obviously it changes, but still some heros are stronger than others in their roles. Its just that they can offer different additional things.
For example lion and rhasta are about equal in terms of disabling, but rhasta is able to give a temporary stationary piece of map control. Well placed lvl 3 wards or even aghanim buffed wards are about the equivalent of a tower, which shifts the balance of power while pushing from being against you in tower range to an equal fight, despite the close-tower position youre in. This special ability gives rhasta the edge over lion right now, while lion is still picked to support certain lanes, which he can do better (lion axe, lion kunkka, lion naix)
"There is also the wildcard option, which is quite underrated, imo. You occasionally see Pudge or agility carries, etc, thrown into the mix as wildcards, which has proven useful many a time in top league play (It's also ended up disastrous sometimes, but it does work sometimes ). "
Obviously, experimenting means you have a risk, which can go well or go wrong. Such experiments are far less consistent than the standard picks, but if they work, they get additional attention through their uniqueness
Also the main aspect of why pudge is popular in both pubs and competitive games is the fame aspect
In pubs you want to show off your 1337 hooking skills, every noob dreams of being a great pudge at first.
In competitive games, those are just the moves that make famous players. Even if kunkka moves, rhasta moves or enigma moves may be way more skillfull, great blind hooks or long range arrows are just what makes all the noobs go "OMG THAT GUY IS SO PRO!!!!!11111 I LOVE HIM". Its the reason why Kuroky is so famous, while guys like Puppey or Miracle are basically unknown to people not interested in the competitive scene. I certainly believe those players are equal or stronger dota players than him, but getting a beyond godlike spree against MYM is just more memorable than playing 20 games of perfect supporting, wardwhoring and babysitting to enable that kind of ownage. Playing carries, shotting arrows and hooking just gets more attention and appreciation, which is why they are so overrated and overly picked...
"With all the recent buffs I wonder if seeker will see any more play. Also, Dark Seer seems quite interesting."Seeker i would think will get some play. He is the perfect combo off ganking and carrying and was only weak in 6.59 because the massive nuking and disabling playstyle hurt him too much. With the post-6.60 farm friendly playstyle, he will definitly become a common pick, just like morphling did in the end of 6.59
DarkSeer is one of those heros i hate. Not because they are bad per se, but because their concept is broken.
Awesome farming skills
Horrible carrying ability
Darkseer will easily be able to rack up tons of gold, but he can do virtually nothing with it except buying some support items and maybe a guinsoo. On the other hand having a farming darkseer will make life for your actual maincarry alot harder because he will be constantly overpushing lanes and destroying creepwaves you could freefarm on with his retarded shell and vacuum.
Same reason why i hate playing / playing with pitlord, the concept just bothers me...
EDIT: I think i went over the allowed number of quotes there, gonna try to fix it t.t
This post was edited by Pascal3000 on Jun 19 2009 03:35pm