i see where you're coming from. hunger is good in pubs because most people are idiots and just sit there and auto attack the wave, which lets you run up to them and helix a few times, reduce their hp, then hunger for the kill.

but if you play one game against a clan or in a good vouch league, hunger will be 100% useless and here's why:

you will almost always be in a lane with another hero against two enemy heroes. normally, when axe is picked he is laned with a supporter such as warlock or CM. also, normally people pick stunners / nukers/ good ranged heroes only in competitive play, since the mode is always CM. so, basically, you're going to be laning against a pretty strong lane, such as POTM / SK or puck / tide or something. the players you're against are normally good, and can last hit no problem and they know not to get in melee range of an axe.

so basically, you NEED to max call ASAP because its the only way that you're going to get any kills and own the lane.

the standard skill build for a high level game with axe looks something like:

helix
call
call
helix
call
blade
call
helix max then stats rest of the way

if you substitute hunger in early game, you're going to greatly diminish your laning potential during levels 1-5, which is crucial in most games. the only place that you can really fit hunger in early game is at level 4 instead of helix, but level 1 hunger does nothing anyway, so its not worth it. you can get it after level 7 of course, but by that time mid game is starting and people are going to be roaming and traveling in groups of 3-5, so you're probably not going to be able to pick off any individual heroes with it

sorry for such a long post, but one last thing

if you end up getting hunger instead of call early game, what will typically happen early game against good opponents will be very bad for you. they will CS / deny pretty much every time you hunger them, and whenever you try to get near them to get some helixes off they will run back and harass you with a ranged attack (there will almost always be at least one range in a lane, nobody lanes two melees together in competitive play) . since without call you have no real way to deal damage in a lane, you will get harassed until yellow HP and then they will stun / nuke you and probably kill you.

hunger definitely has its uses in pubs, but for team play and against competent players, it just isn't worth it.


oh and





ever heard of using a chicken to get boots? lolol

This post was edited by MidgetxMafia on May 19 2009 02:48pm

You shouldn't get Hunger in laning phase unless your playing in a game with the title "DOTA APEM PROS!!!" , its too mana intensive for that part of the game. Enemy heroes will just last hit/deny. especially if they enemy hero has aoe spell that the can both harass you and last hit a creep with (krob comes first to mind).

@ midgetmafia, pascal

But not getting hunger all together is just plain nooby and reeks of pretentious "i read an axe guide written by a rand self proclaimed pro and now I know all".

and I don't play public games. if i did, it would only be to stomp wannabes like yourself.

Ravens|Angel getting 2 points of hunger before level 10, in the DTS cup 09' final round;

http://www.dota-allstars.com/replay/125250/index.html

EG.WTFg^ putting a point in hunger in ESL EMS groupstage week 2;

http://www.dota-allstars.com/replay/122593/index.html

Burning of 7L gets hunger in bootcamp vs rush3d;

'http://www.dota-allstars.com/replay/125722/index.html

By the way, these games are on the opposite side of the spectrum compared to public games. These are paid professionals playing DotA. Do you get paid to play DotA? Didn't think so.

So go crawl back to your TDA/Open Bnet league and try to build youself back up, because here you just got knocked down a notch. By the way, do you have an AKA in any of the aforementioned places of play? Something to possibly redeem your claims? Didn't think so.

don't worry. I am a forgiving person. If you ever want some pointers just send me a PM. Always glad to help a noob out. Maybe send me a replay, and I can critique you.

first game:

Build Order:
[05m 48s] Level 1: Counter Helix
[09m 13s] Level 2: Berserker's Call
[10m 04s] Level 3: Counter Helix
[11m 36s] Level 4: Berserker's Call
[13m 37s] Level 5: Counter Helix
[14m 50s] Level 6: Culling Blade
[17m 07s] Level 7: Counter Helix
[19m 32s] Level 8: Berserker's Call
[21m 17s] Level 9: Berserker's Call
[25m 24s] Level 10: Attribute Bonus
[26m 39s] Level 11: Culling Blade
[28m 21s] Level 12: Attribute Bonus
[30m 24s] Level 13: Attribute Bonus
[32m 19s] Level 14: Attribute Bonus
[35m 01s] Level 15: Attribute Bonus
[36m 31s] Level 16: Culling Blade
[38m 40s] Level 17: Attribute Bonus
[42m 26s] Level 18: Attribute Bonus
[47m 31s] Level 19: Battle Hunger


third game:

[03m 58s] Level 1: Counter Helix
[07m 37s] Level 2: Berserker's Call
[08m 46s] Level 3: Counter Helix
[09m 45s] Level 4: Berserker's Call
[12m 19s] Level 5: Counter Helix
[14m 05s] Level 6: Culling Blade
[15m 40s] Level 7: Counter Helix
[17m 58s] Level 8: Berserker's Call
[18m 53s] Level 9: Berserker's Call
[20m 56s] Level 10: Attribute Bonus
[21m 29s] Level 11: Culling Blade
[24m 56s] Level 12: Attribute Bonus
[26m 39s] Level 13: Attribute Bonus
[30m 50s] Level 14: Attribute Bonus
[33m 01s] Level 15: Attribute Bonus
[34m 05s] Level 16: Culling Blade
[35m 10s] Level 17: Attribute Bonus
[38m 14s] Level 18: Battle Hunger
[39m 38s] Level 19: Battle Hunger
[49m 23s] Level 20: Battle Hunger

thats funny, i see no hunger until way late game. lol

also, in the second game you posted, he got ONE POINT of hunger at 12, probably just to stop tide / sk blink. then he didnt get the rest until the 20s.


if they have blinkers sure i think one point in hunger AFTER level 7 is good.

but if you're going to support hunger as a good skill to get early game and max before the 20s, at least post replays that support your point, not go against it.

yes, these guys are professionals, and thats probably why they max call / helix before hunger, unlike you're suggesting.

also, i dont play pubs or TDA. every heard of a clan and vouch only leagues?

when I play axe i go

helix/call/hunger in that order.

I think hunger is better than stats early so kids can't bottle/blink

for items

rush vangaurd
boots
blink dagger
bot
shivas
hot

rarely do you finish the heart because you end before that but I find this to be the best axe build

Thats funny, they actually get hunger as opposed to your build which gets it 21-25. Tell me, do you think you are better then these players as well?



So? He got hunger, you didn't. He is a good player, you are not. See the connection?



And since your so high and mighty on the notion of competitive play, in how many of these games are not 1 blink dagger or bottle bought? Another question I don't expect an answer to.



They do support my point. I have never made those claims. Please quote me? Another question I don't expect an answer to.



I am suggesting you max hunger before call/helix? In my last post I even stated clearly that Hunger is not a good skill to stat in laning phase. Please, quote me. Another question I don't expect an answer to.


No I have never heard of clans or vouch only league, yet I am posting replays of top teams competing. /sarcasm

What is this acclaimed clan you speak of? Which vouch league? What is your AKA? Why so dodge?

My only point is that hunger is worth getting instead of stats (instead of hunger lvls 21-25, like you suggest), be it one point or four. Find a post by me where I say you should get hunger before call/helix. Another question I don't expect an answer to. Making random invalid claims eh? Sounds like the rebuttals of a defeated argumentation. All of those replays support my point. These are only the first axe replays I found, I don't really feel like digging just for your sake.

And here is your build just in case you change your heavily flawed argument.



Also not including hood on a tank is pretty fail. Hood can also be found on all of the axe replays ive posted so far.

This post was edited by ForTheMathematics on May 19 2009 08:42pm

Helix
Call
Helix
Call
Helix
Ult
Helix
Call
Call
stats and ult

stout 2 tango+flask
two rings of regen
Phase boots
Finish hood
Blink

Never ever ever make vanguards, ever. Really you can get anything from hp to utility from this point on.
Only time you get hunger is when the game is to the point of pushing, and you're initiating. It locks down their initiator, atleast, from running away and blinking.

Hell, late game battles the heroes have more regen than axe's hunger.

USELESS IMO.

oh christ. this is turning into a novel.

maybe i didnt read your post clearly for some reason i thought you were advocating getting hunger early over call. btw, in those replays, there were plenty of blink daggers. the "ray" on the item parser that shows up with no image in the inventory is a blink dagger.

basically, you're saying that hunger is good not as a damage dealer / laning skill but as a blink stopper and for situational use. i agree with this, so basically we're arguing about nothing.

anyway it was fun