Phase is used for completely different reasons than both treads or travels, so what? Certain heroes make better use of one or another. That's the whole point.

You've seen Slardars using them when? I can't recall any time Slardar was used in a good competitive game. TeG tried him once or twice vs. Ravens or Ks.int or EG, can't remember which atm, but not well; though in all cases, Phase Boots were purchased. Seeing pubs get certain things doesn't mean much. I've seen Int Treads on a battle CM. All we can do is theorize, and in theory, a well placed and well timed AoE stun is better than a minor single target DPS increase. Team fights almost always occur during a push/defend. You don't push without creeps. ~8 creeps on each side, 4 or 5 heroes on each side, you waste valuable seconds getting to a good place to stun, if at all. Since we're apparently talking only about pubs then, Slardar is hybrid semi-carry/pseudo-initiator/chaser. Ideally, someone on your team is intelligent enough to pick up an initiator. If not, well, that's going to be Slar's job. And if someone did, that's even better. After initiation, the team is weak, Slardar comes in with perfect timing (because he wasn't blocked), and lands a stun on all the heroes who were effected by the first initiation (ideally, everyone), second round of AoE comes through, Slardar chases anyone who managed to survive, and you win. One or two seconds is enough to make a stun amazing or mediocre at best.

The whole "wracking up damage is the way to go" mentality is one of the reasons pubs are such lower level than even a low-skill CW. There's only so much farm on the map, and certain heroes simply make much better use of it than others. If Slardar is the only possibly candidate for carry (HIGHLY unlikely in a pub), go ahead and pick treads, but if that's true, it probably means you've already lost.

BKB, in a general sense, is to avoid disables, not damage. Its not wise to get BKB against a team with nothing but nukes with no stuns. And if you use your BKB to avoid damage, you'll be disabled and killed. Obviously Hood is a defensive item, and one that is highly underrated by pubs. If you're facing anything like a decent Zeus+Bane or any other high damage ganking combo, a Hood is viable. If they see you're trying to carry, of course they're going to gank you. Hood is cheap and effective, and it lets you shrug off Laguna Blades/Fingers like AM. The role of "tank" doesn't exist in DotA. You can't force people to attack you. If you're a threat (which you're trying to be if you want to play a carry Slardar), and you have a good AoE stun, any semi-decent team will target you. While Nukes don't dominate late game, its still enough to do the damage required for the team to take you out.



Ganking is vital late game? Huh? Ganking is for dominance early and mid game. If you're ganking late game, something has gone terribly wrong for both your teams. Landing bashes is not vital to anything late game. I'll ask it again, how many bashers or bash heroes do you see in competitive DotA? Bash is a 1-target, unreliable, and pretty much useless quasi-disable.

BKB in no way gives more tank than a Hood. And getting a BKB while in the phase that you're still easily ganked means you're doing something wrong. BKB is for team fights to avoid being disabled, not to avoid damage while getting ganked.

To be fair, Necro/Krob have shown just how strong some int heroes can carry. In top competition, Slardar can play somewhat differently, and often does, especially if the team is one the ropes. Bashing can become less and less important, depending on what's needed, but his traditional playstyle does make heavy use of bashing, especially if he's countering invisible heroes.

I meant that both treads and phase have combative use, travel is purely for heavy push games.



TeG seems to like him, and he saw a fair amount of play in earlier versions. They actually lost their most recent game using him, which I believe was against raven. I've already addressed this point you're trying to drive home. It's simple, theoretically positioning is key, but in practice, he doesn't need phase to position correctly. Only occasionally is it going to be an issue. Most Slardars will use phase to get to the combat and to escape from it, not during. He can get into position with sprint; he can be in the proper place at the proper time without phase; it's nice, but it's not necessary. When he chases, he is perfectly capable of landing stuns without phase. The biggest thing phase helps him with during the chase is moving through the enemy to a position in front of them, but that's really just a luxury.



Pubs are a different matter entirely, and your comment is simply not true. A competent player, I don't mean good, just competent, can last hit occasionally and knows when to push/gank hard, can stomp pubs with that kind of hero. In more competitive games, scrims/clanwars blah blah, he can still play the same. Sure he can play a little like tide and grab a bunch of bracers+phase and make do, let someone else farm. That is one way to play Slardar, and it can work decently. By wracking up damage, I meant grab an Armlet and use your ulti as a means of destroying people. It works, it's cheap, and if you can keep momentum, it's very effective. With that build he makes an amazing chaser and he packs a major punch midgame.



That's not the point. You avoid disable AND nukes with bkb. During a team clash, you don't get effected by either, making it superior. It last long enough to be used on ganks if necessary and can be crucial to your success in teamfights, depending on the team. In a teamfight, you're going to eat nukes and disables, especially since they often come in the same spell. Hood is more of an, "I'm going to outlast you. No matter what you do I'm going to be here, so deal with it," type of item. Slardar isn't that kind of hero; he's more of a wham bam thank you mam, I'm going back to the well, type of hero, until he grabs a heart.



Landing bashes isn't vital, but it will ruin someones day, and make your job that much easier. It adds damage to boot.

I think this thread is mostly focused for lower than top-league play, soa generalized, practical build, works rather well. That's not to say you won't see Slardar used this way in some scrims/league play, especially pub leagues. Being on this particular forum and the actual OP leads me to believe this is strictly pub. For a purely top of the line, how to optimize Slardar thread, we would need to flesh out whole teams, and that is a bit tedious and beyond the scope of this thread.

This post was edited by deathbypepsi on Jul 10 2009 04:08pm

Travels have many uses, heavy farming, pushing, map control for ganking/counter ganking, etc. Heroes like Bloodseeker can arguably make use of all 3. Treads for DPS, Phase for better chasing, Travels for better ganking. Phase and Treads still have vastly different uses, even if you label them under "combative."



Heroes change in different versions. Phase wasn't even introduced until .55 or something. He doesn't need Phase to position himself, but there will invariably be at least a handful of times when its necessary. All it takes is one bad team fight to lose a game you were winning. Treads giving a minor single target DPS increase just doesn't match up. Phase is a 10s cooldown, using it to get to a fight faster gives you plenty of time to use it during, and then again after. If you use Sprint to try and get into position, you lose it as a chasing mechanism, as well as risk the chance of being disabled and killed by AoE from the damage increase. And even then, you could miss your stun by a mere second and not get 1 or 2 key heroes in it.



Any hero can pub stomp in the hands of a good player. Battle CM is perfectly capable of pub stomp...doesn't mean its viable. Armlet gives ridiculous stats for the price and has no bearing on the Phase vs. Treads argument. Trying to farm unnecessary items is what I was talking about. Sure, a Lina/NA/Magi/Zues/Whatever can do better with Guinsoo/Heart/Whatever. The point is, they don't make as good of use of their farm as carries, and taking up that farm, as well as not doing what they do best (gank) is just stupid. If I had a dime for every Lina I saw staying in Lane after level 6...Slardar will never match up to a single target DPS carry like N'aix. Taking up the farm away from a good carry and not assisting in kills when he has so much ability to do so is a waste. 2-3 bracers, Phase, Armlet, that's all he needs. The minor DPS bonus from treads will not outweigh that one team fight where you couldn't get your stun off and your carry died so you lost the fight. As the game progresses, that's when you can get your Heart or Cuirass or whatever while you push/defend and manage some farm. A stun on an 8 second cooldown is all you need to do damage and kill heroes in a chase/gank. Having treads simply won't do much in a team fight on Slardar.



That very much is the point. Heroes who generally get BKB are those like Enigma, who need to channel uninterrupted, or a carry, who needs to do damage and not be disabled. The immune to damage part of BKB is merely a bonus. The main purpose is to avoid disables. How often do you see support heroes or heavy gank heroes get a BKB?

The whole point of a gank is to basically guarantee a kill. You shouldn't need BKB to gank. BKB should only be gotten on heroes who have very specific roles, i.e. being the incredibly dangerous carry who needs to be stopped ASAP by the other team, or having a game breaking disable that requires channeling like Enigma. Slardar simply will not be the threat a N'aix is, for less farm also, and doesn't have the AoE damage/utility a carry DP or Necro has. How many pure single target DPS carries are used now? Its rare, and they usually have some other gimmick(s), like N'aix. Like I said before, you don't BKB in a heavy nuke team that is low on major disables. BKB's main purpose is to avoid disables, avoiding damage is just a bonus.



Landing bashes is simply unreliable and nearly useless. In a chase, your stun that's on an 8s cool down is all you need. In a team fight, you'll very, very rarely get a bash proc at any time that really makes a difference. The bonus damage is negligible too.

It is my opinion that you should never learn or adapt to a build that is not the most efficient. Yes, in pubs you may find a game where your carry is horrible and you can't rely on him to do anything. Oh well, 1 game, big deal. Every player should try to play well, not just win. Every game should be "good," and you shouldn't be satisfied just because you pub stomped with some obscure or inefficient build. You should know the role of your hero and do what's necessary to play that role well. All you can do is hope your team knows the same. Despite being pubs, at least on Garena ~50% of the game will be people who at least know their role and at least ATTEMPT to do it, even if they don't do it well. Sometimes that 50% is all on the other team, but such is the nature of a pub.

I was specifically talking about Slardar in this case and under what circumstance he would consider travel. Treads and Phase are going to be the most likely of choices for general use.



Actually, treads increases DPS significantly. The more Slardar whacks things, the more damage he does. It won't produce numbers like Armlet will, but it does actually increase his DPS significantly, especially with Bash. The nice thing about treads is, it gives health, IAS, and a bit of bonus damage. I think phase is going to end up being a 12 second cooldown under the new version. Sprint has a fairly long duration, it'll last for the team fight and the chase and then some if you're lucky. Using sprint wisely is Slardar's shtick. There are a lot of, maybe this might happen or this, maybe this, in your argument. A lot of things can go wrong for Slardar, what I'm saying, is phase doesn't usually help the situation. If he gets disabled and misses that key stun, phase won't do anything to help him. He isn't likely to die from AoE if you have a proper initiator, and it's highly unlikely that he will be blocked heavily enough to prevent him his precious seconds of time, especially considering the positing of most heroes.



Ironically, phase won't add much to your killing power either. The extra damage IAS adds is simply more than phase can. Bash is actually quite nice for a Slardar with armlet+treads, as it will proc fairly frequently. I totally agree about overfarming, but often Slardar is your semi-carry, taking you to late game. He is very strong, and can be quite potent. I'm not totally convinced about your argument for Niax. He isn't picked for rawr DPS power; it's his ability to be spell immune+steroid+a nice ganking skill+self healing that makes him a strong carry. He outlives other carries, and offers nice stuff all game long, a total package. I wonder what the DPS comparison between the two would look like, considering Slardar does pack quite a punch with his ulti.



But how often do you fight that sort of team . A lot of the heroes that make that team are banned. I already stated why BkB is great; it stops both in team fights, which is great for Slardar!



It stops TPs, has a similar proc rate to MKB. It's handy and can make a difference. It's unreliable, sure, but it has a good enough chance to go off to consider taking it.



I agree with this partially. Pubs are a very different environment, and the roles change slightly. To win pubs, you're going to play a lot differently than higher competition, so really, using a build that is ideal for pubs is exactly how you learn your role in pubs. If you want to learn to play in clanwars, play clanwars. The casual gamer doesn't, usually.

This post was edited by deathbypepsi on Jul 10 2009 06:03pm

That's not my point. You said BoT is completely different than Treads or Phase, for some reason I don't know. My point is, all 3 are completely different, so saying one is different than the others doesn't mean anything.




No, treads does not increase DPS significantly on a hero like Slardar. You won't be solo ganking, your job is to stun, and chase if the hero(es) somehow manage to escape. Your hits will be few, and getting treads won't make a difference. As I said some posts back, for bash of any kind requires a lot of IAS, IAS that is wasted on Slardar, and IAS that treads alone does not sufficiently supply. To make any use of bash (and keep in mind, bash is STILL pretty much useless), it requires much more farm than Slardar should be doing.

There's no maybes anywhere in my argument. Its guaranteed. You WILL be forced to run around creeps and/or heroes. You WILL be delayed. You WILL be disabled trying to move in by anyone not asleep. Phasing in and stunning is easy. Taking several additional seconds to run around creeps/heroes gives the enemy that much longer to see you and disable you. Most heroes do not require positioning, and having a proper initiator as part of your argument is invalid for 2 reasons. 1) The other team has an initiator and 2) since you're going to insist on pub only, its quite the huge assumption that your initiator does his job correctly, assuming your team doesn't consist of 3 other agi carries and a Zues who stays in lane until level 15.



The point of Phase is not killing power. I don't see how you assume that's part of my argument. Again, Bash is not nice. Look at Sniper's Headshot that has a what, 40%? proc chance compared to Slardar's 25%. And even then, Sniper requires massive IAS, plus his ridiculous range that Slardar doesn't have, for HS to even matter. And Slardar isn't even an Agi hero where stacking agi gives damage and IAS.

N'aix is very much picked for his raw power. With just treads and armlet, he can do incredible damage. Plus he is a great anti-tank. Rage is merely a gimmick that gives him an edge, along with Open Wounds. He still requires a BKB in many/most competitive games. Infest also makes N'aix quite difficult to gank when used correctly, and it also gives him incredible lane-staying power, two more things he has over Slardar. Throw in Desolator and N'aix is a beast. Slardar's DPS won't even come close to N'aix with comparable farm.



Again, you're not getting the point. Any team to pick massive nukes with no disables would be retarded anyway. The point is, being immune to spells is not what BKB's main use is. You get it for the disables; anything else is a bonus.



Why do you need to stop TPs with an unreliable proc that requires melee range auto attacks? 8s cd stun + teammates? Its rarely handy, and it rarely makes a difference, and requires a lot of IAS to make that difference.



The only role that needs to be played differently in a pub is support/warder. Obviously this doesn't help in a pub. Initiator, gankers, and carries are all played the same and have the same impact. A pub with no initiator vs. a team with one will always lose with approximately equal skilled players. A team with good gankers vs. one who never ganks will again always win. Every team always has carries, so yeah. If you play a good ganker, a good initiator, or a good carry, you can and will make a difference in a pub.

This post was edited by Spirit-Warrior on Jul 10 2009 06:34pm

I was saying that because it's not build dependent to pick up BoT. It is a situational item that will replace either Treads or Phase in X circumstance. It's not a regular item for a normal Slardar build.



Actually, with Slardars ulti, +10 damage and 30%IAS gives a nice boost to DPS(Around 40% at base), and he will on average be pumping 20% more damage with his ulti. Its usefulness continues in conjunction with armlet and his ult. The % bonus it gives when combined with armlet is significantly lower though, but there are a lot of factors I'm ignoring in this calculation, like bash for instance. DPS is an odd thing in a game like this, but it is significant, given Slardar can do a lot of damage with just his ulti, and if I remember correctly, his stun synergies with his ulti now. The health bonus is also significant, but I'm not really in the mood to do armor vs health comparisons, especially considering the screwyness of EHP.



The problem I have with this argument is, it doesn't happen often. You don't take seconds to move around things, unless your positioning is way off, clogged by creeps, or they've got you holed up in your base. It doesn't take seconds to move around a creep, its a minor divergence in your path at most, most of the time. I've seen situations where this argument might be valid, but Slardars playstyle isn't one where he will get locked behind a bunch of creeps and it doesn't happen all to often to players who aren't asleep at their keyboard. He can come in from behind/side and even charge straight up the middle, if initiated properly, and most of the time he'll have a clear path to his goal. Where this might come into play more is tower diving and against other phase users. This should be isolated in comparison to teamfights, as they tend to be very different, but it does have a place in this argument.



Comparing snipers mini-stun to Slardars bash isn't exactly fair, very different skills and playstyles. Slardar actually gains a nice increase in proc rate midish game with a 50% IAS, for bash.



Slots are valuable and team dynamics will play a greater role in choosing heroes(bans as well). Niax doesn't provide an AoE stun or the chasing capacity of Slardar, although he does have a nice slow. He is used completely differently and their DPS calculations will range dramatically at different levels with different amounts of farm, but Slardars ulti actually helps him increase his DPS dramatically, through his team. Slardars usefulness in general is debatable, but that is not the point of this thread. As a chaser and DPSer he is sufficient in his role with a cheap item build. I wouldn't be so quick to rule out normal attacking as a significant source of damage for Slardar; he's quite potent a DPSer midgame.



I just mentioned it as a nice added bonus, especially to a chaser, whose typical bane is TPs. It's unlikely, but it's nice to have that chance to stop things like that, all sorts of channeling effects. It doesn't really require that much IAS, by the time you even get max bash it'll be mid/early late game, you'll have plenty of IAS to hit his attack frame break points with treads+armlet.

This post was edited by deathbypepsi on Jul 10 2009 08:22pm

I'm too lazy to do this again, and I'm quite bored of saying the same things over and over.

Your damage calculations for him are based on a target sitting there and taking constant hits. This rarely happens anywhere before late game, in which case Slardar's utility diminishes to mostly just his stun. Your real carry is at this point doing way more damage, or is completely useless and your team got stomped, but then you're not useful either. If you outfarmed your carry, then something went wrong. Again, when ganking, melee DPS is practically non existent with very few exceptions, Slardar not being one of them. Treads does nothing when you get in a couple hits before your teammates kill the target. In late game, your carry is doing the bulk of the damage and your main role is to stun and/or pick off solo heroes that escape, in both cases treads help very little.

And being blocked happens very often. Very, very often. At late game when there are millions of creeps surrounding you, it happens a lot. It takes a lot longer to move around a horde of creeps than you realize. Time that could make a huge impact. And again, your argument of "...if initiated properly" is fairly invalid in a discussion of pubs. And again, your argument of "...most of the time" isn't enough. One crucial team battle loss is all it takes to go from being ahead to losing. Treads won't have that kind of an impact, ever.

No one gains proc rate from IAS. You gain more PPM, but not increase proc rate. Sniper's 40% proc rate is garbage until very good IAS. Why is 25% proc rate that requires melee range different exactly? The skills and playstyles have nothing to do with the point, the point remains that bash and mini-bash procs all require hefty IAS to be worth anything at all, no matter how small it is. As a STR hero, you won't be getting that needed IAS without overfarming and giving up on a lot of ganks and counter ganks. 50% IAS does not make Bash procs helpful in almost all reasonable scenarios.

Why are you suddenly bringing up the differences between N'aix and Slardar now? Your statement was about pure DPS comparison and how N'aix was not gotten for his raw power. He is, and N'aix's DPS far outshine's Slardar's. This is why N'aix is a good carry and Slardar is not a carry. If N'aix had an AoE stun he would be permabanned like NA.

Regardless of how good his DPS is mid-game, mid-game is ganking and gank DPS rarely, if ever, is largely comprised of melee damage. His potential mid-game DPS is good, not great, and his utility is stunning for nukers to damage, and picking off anyone who lives.

And again, on an 8s cd, there's no way someone should be able to TP from you. If you're chasing, they should be near death, or you'll most likely get counter ganked. If they're near death, 1 stun should be all you need to do the job.

Anyway, like I said, I'm tired of arguing the same things over and over. Arguments without solid conclusions are pointless. If you want to play Treads, go ahead. Its like arguing over why Phase is better than Treads on Kunkka, some people just refuse to believe it. But, it really isn't any skin off my nose.

This post was edited by Spirit-Warrior on Jul 10 2009 09:40pm

Actually my damage calculations are DPSecond. Slardar has several seconds of whacking away at people he stuns, and it's not infrequent to get a few shots in without them being stunned.



This argument takes us further and further away from anything relevant. Being a chaser, it's not uncommon for you to do the killing, more DPS to Slardar increases the chance he kills something. It's not always going to be Slardar and his teammates. Making him a lethal combatant changes the way he is played. He does excellent damage very early on.



This is one moment of the game, where X happens just right, in the correct position, is not much of an argument. A good chunk of the game goes by before late game, and the situation you're describing is not unmanageable.

One crucial team battle is also an odd thing to say about pubs, but that's besides the point. I'm advocating a build for the lowliest of pubs to a wide range of possible playing fields.



A bash is different from a mini-stun; it is much more useful, and actually he can get several extra attacks in with a bit under 50% IAS at mid game,within the short time frame of a few seconds, which bashing can actually help. The bash itself can be amazingly good or just a bit of damage(slightly over 50 when maxed); it can be worth it to take over stats.



Actually, I wouldn't jump so quickly on the DPS comparison. Niax will greatly out DPS Slardar late game, but I doubt he'll be anywhere close to Slardar midgame. I never said Slardar was a carry. I simply stated that Slardar can do damage, and he can; there's nothing wrong with that. He's a fairly good semi-carry, and works well with a few other midgame carryish heroes.



It is for physical damage because few heroes can actually produce physical damage at that stage in the game. Slardar is an exception. He can take out large chunks of health with melee attacks, when in conjunction with his ulti. His stun also isn't bad on damage.



I can provide just as many circumstances to make my argument work. 8 seconds is a pretty good chunk of time to stop a TP, especially if it's someone with an escape mechanism, who could use whatever they have and tp out after the stun, not uncommon in the least bit. That is a single nice thing that Bash could potentially do, and if it actually happens, great, a kill. Unreliable as it may be, that doesn't stop it from having a fair chance of doing something important. It's just not something to be relied upon.



Arguments without solid combatants are generally pointless; a statement which could very easily be used against me . I understand your frustration, but your statement about arguments without solid conclusions is repulsively illogical . I think you'd have a much easier time defending them on Kunkka, if that's any consolation. Slardar isn't a particularly popular hero, so a lot is up for grabs on his usage, as the pros haven't given enough footage for us to judge how he is used generally. In that way, he is similar to many other heroes.

This post was edited by deathbypepsi on Jul 10 2009 11:05pm

Holy shit tl;dr.