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Jun 5 2013 03:26am
Quote (Cpt_Ghost @ 5 Jun 2013 11:24)
I'm still asking; what about i play you and demolish you 11-0? I aint going to explain shit to ye.


you are still here?
after yesterday i thought you will be gone forever
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Jun 5 2013 03:42am
Quote (extravagant @ 5 Jun 2013 10:26)
you are still here?
after yesterday i thought you will be gone forever


Why would i be LOL
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Jun 5 2013 03:52am
Quote (Cpt_Ghost @ 5 Jun 2013 11:42)
Why would i be LOL


because you are using words as "lol" in caps
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Jun 5 2013 04:00am
Quote (extravagant @ 5 Jun 2013 10:52)
because you are using words as "lol" in caps


Ur cool bro.
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Jun 5 2013 04:29am
Quote (kraak @ Jun 5 2013 07:46am)
Wall o text.


I didn't realise you were still using this forum ^_^
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Jun 5 2013 07:40am
Quote (Perf3ction @ Jun 5 2013 06:10am)
it might take some time to benefit from the expo, but the point is that you are taking it FIRST. So you don't have to 100% saturate, you just need to get enough drones there to give some some eco advantage + still be able to hold his counter attack. There is no need to go hardcore drones and lose....having the expo and more workers than your opponent = you will have more units than him faster.

If he doesn't try to expand himself (if he does, he is behind anyway) and attacks you...hold it with spines and it's GG cuz you have that base and he doesn't.

You should never try to push into a heavily defended area once you have already done damage/denied an expo unless you know it will work! You will find that in diamond-master, people will stop your 1 base stuff very easily because it's easy to detect. Gold league players can barely control their units, making them vulnerable to such strange timings.




A swarmhost rush will only work on a toss at a specific 2 base timing...you need to nydus outside of his base and go for the natural. anything else will just be easily crushed imo. i can guarantee this will not kill a 3-4 gate opener protoss with mothership core and a robo. It would actually be incredibly easy to hold since you're gonna have such a small quantity of stuff.



expansion is build at 2.25, make pool be build at 2.55
even if you make queen first, it spawns at the 2.55+65sec pool+50sec queen+40sec larve inject = 5 minites+30sec, before its even posible to create drones as fast as toss makes probes
now you add mules / drone costs for buildings / larve spended on army instead of drones
and you see, that even if have expo, you are behind in workers the first 6-9min of the game
yes, you can make drone every 15 sec, and terran/toss ones every 17sec


worker creation:
chronoboost:
0.5625 energy per game second + 20sec duration + 25energy cost + 50%increased drone production*17sec to create a drone = 45% of the time i have 50%increased probe production = 14.45 second drobe construction time

Orbital command:
0.5625 energy per game second + 90sec duration + 50energy cost + 170minirals per min per mule +42miniral income per scv = 100% mule up per obital * 16workers on minirals = 25%increased minrial income thx mule = 4.05+16+6 workers instead of 16+6 * 17sec = 14.35 seconds to create the production of 1 scv

Drones
only droning = 8drones+1overlord = 9larve per 8drones = 9/8*15sec larve spam = 16.88 drone construction time, exl. queen+drones waisted on buildings, larve spended on army.

howlong does it take, if build queen and get queen-larve at 5 min 30sec, before you have same mounth of drones, (based on infinite resorces) as toss or terran?
vs toss:
5min +30sec / 14.45 = 22.84 probs are build
5min30sec / 16.88sec = 19.55 probes are build
22.84-19.55=3.29 drones behind, at 5.30
3.555 drones are buid per min
4.15 probes are build per min
4.15-3.555 = 0.6 drones are less build per min
queen = 1larve per 11 seconds = 5.45 drones per min can be build from inject-larve = 9.01 drone per min are build from hatchery and from queen after 5.30min
9.01-4.15=4.86

(3.29 drone behind + 1drones waisted on pool+1drone on expansion or gas or whatever+1/4 larve waisted on queen supply) / 4.86extra drones past the 5.30min mark = 1.14min ontop of the 5.30mark
its about 6min to 6min38seconds before you have same amounth of drones created at the main, if not build army and more then 2structures then toss or terran

my expo is not only a expo, its also a tactical building/proxy hatchery/safe heaven for army-kiting-drone-killer-base-traders, like explained before,
so consider it a free expansion!
its about 6 to 6.30 in the game,
howlong does it take, before building a drone give me benefits?
this drone is a low drone counth = maximum income per drone = 45minirals per min at maximum

50min for drone + 0 free larve+13.25minrials for supply and 1/8larve for supply = 63.25 minirals needed t build this drone, and not spended on army
so to benefit from it, you need to urn this drone and urn 63.25 minrials for army
63.25*2/45 +17sec construction time = 3minites and 6seconds before a drone construction gives benefits
meanwhile this drone is trying to give benfits later ingame, it can be destroyed.

i plan my attack at 8min 30sec, my proxy hatchery finish at 4minites (builded before pool)
from 4min to 5min30sec its beneficial for me to create drones,
if i create a queen for larve-inject, the larve will come atm its not usefull anymore to build drones, at 5.30


this mass droning, to create queens and larve and exp, is not to create a great economie urly game, its to create mass zergling suwisde army ''mid''-game
its not logic to build 4min units at 9-10min, and swarmhosts not need you to have mass amounth of larve
if you add that up to gethor: urly agression+low larve needs+economie based on maximum income at minimum costs
there is totaly no need for inject larve-suturned expansions-

Quote
having the expo and more workers than your opponent = you will have more units than him faster.

you have more income (optinal production) then opponent, if have more drones
but, your army value is opponent army value - (extra expo and worker costs - income gained sofar, from the workers you have more then your opponent)


Quote (Cpt_Ghost @ Jun 5 2013 09:24am)
I'm still asking; what about i play you and demolish you 11-0? I aint going to explain shit to ye.

i play for fun, you are not fun!
so you can not pown me 11-0 is the reason your selfexpresion is under avarage?
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Posts: 59,371
Joined: Feb 15 2009
Gold: 80.00
Jun 5 2013 07:56am
Quote (Tommyvv @ 5 Jun 2013 14:40)
expansion is build at 2.25, make pool be build at 2.55
even if you make queen first, it spawns at the 2.55+65sec pool+50sec queen+40sec larve inject = 5 minites+30sec, before its even posible to create drones as fast as toss makes probes
now you add mules / drone costs for buildings / larve spended on army instead of drones
and you see, that even if have expo, you are behind in workers the first 6-9min of the game
yes, you can make drone every 15 sec, and terran/toss ones every 17sec


worker creation:
chronoboost:
0.5625 energy per game second + 20sec duration + 25energy cost + 50%increased drone production*17sec to create a drone = 45% of the time i have 50%increased probe production = 14.45 second drobe construction time

Orbital command:
0.5625 energy per game second + 90sec duration + 50energy cost + 170minirals per min per mule +42miniral income per scv = 100% mule up per obital * 16workers on minirals  =  25%increased minrial income thx mule = 4.05+16+6 workers instead of 16+6 * 17sec =  14.35 seconds to create the production of 1 scv

Drones
only droning = 8drones+1overlord = 9larve per 8drones = 9/8*15sec larve spam = 16.88 drone construction time, exl. queen+drones waisted on buildings, larve spended on army.

howlong does it take, if build queen and get queen-larve at 5 min 30sec, before you have same mounth of drones, (based on infinite resorces) as toss or terran?
vs toss:
5min +30sec / 14.45 = 22.84 probs are build
5min30sec / 16.88sec = 19.55 probes are build
22.84-19.55=3.29 drones behind, at 5.30
3.555 drones are buid per min
4.15 probes are build per min
4.15-3.555 = 0.6 drones are less build per min
queen = 1larve per 11 seconds = 5.45 drones per min can be build from inject-larve = 9.01 drone per min are build from hatchery and from queen after 5.30min
9.01-4.15=4.86

(3.29 drone behind + 1drones waisted on pool+1drone on expansion or gas or whatever+1/4 larve waisted on queen supply) / 4.86extra drones past the 5.30min mark = 1.14min ontop of the 5.30mark
its about 6min to 6min38seconds before you have same amounth of drones created at the main, if not build army and more then 2structures then toss or terran

my expo is not only a expo, its also a tactical building/proxy hatchery/safe heaven for army-kiting-drone-killer-base-traders, like explained before,
so consider it a free expansion!
its about 6 to 6.30 in the game,
howlong does it take, before building a drone give me benefits?
this drone is a low drone counth = maximum income per drone = 45minirals per min at maximum

50min for drone + 0 free larve+13.25minrials for supply and 1/8larve for supply = 63.25 minirals needed t build this drone, and not spended on army
so to benefit from it, you need to urn this drone and urn 63.25 minrials for army
63.25*2/45 +17sec construction time = 3minites and 6seconds before a drone construction gives benefits
meanwhile this drone is trying to give benfits later ingame, it can be destroyed.

i plan my attack at 8min 30sec, my proxy hatchery finish at 4minites (builded before pool)
from 4min to 5min30sec its beneficial for me to create drones,
if i create a queen for larve-inject, the larve will come atm its not usefull anymore to build drones, at 5.30


this mass droning, to create queens and larve and exp, is not to create a great economie urly game, its to create mass zergling suwisde army ''mid''-game
its not logic to build 4min units at 9-10min, and swarmhosts not need you to have mass amounth of larve
if you add that up to gethor: urly agression+low larve needs+economie based on maximum income at minimum costs
there is totaly no need for inject larve-suturned expansions-


you have more income (optinal production) then opponent, if have more drones
but, your army value is opponent army value - (extra expo and worker costs - income gained sofar, from the workers you have more then your opponent)



i play for fun, you are not fun!
so you can not pown me 11-0 is the reason your selfexpresion is under avarage?


where's that damn postblocker
Member
Posts: 59,371
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Jun 5 2013 08:02am
Quote (Cpt_Ghost @ 5 Jun 2013 14:56)
where's that damn postblocker


got it.
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Joined: Feb 23 2010
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Jun 5 2013 11:32am
Quote (Tommyvv @ Jun 5 2013 08:40am)
expansion is build at 2.25, make pool be build at 2.55
even if you make queen first, it spawns at the 2.55+65sec pool+50sec queen+40sec larve inject = 5 minites+30sec, before its even posible to create drones as fast as toss makes probes
now you add mules / drone costs for buildings / larve spended on army instead of drones
and you see, that even if have expo, you are behind in workers the first 6-9min of the game
yes, you can make drone every 15 sec, and terran/toss ones every 17sec


worker creation:
chronoboost:
0.5625 energy per game second + 20sec duration + 25energy cost + 50%increased drone production*17sec to create a drone = 45% of the time i have 50%increased probe production = 14.45 second drobe construction time

Orbital command:
0.5625 energy per game second + 90sec duration + 50energy cost + 170minirals per min per mule +42miniral income per scv = 100% mule up per obital * 16workers on minirals  =  25%increased minrial income thx mule = 4.05+16+6 workers instead of 16+6 * 17sec =  14.35 seconds to create the production of 1 scv

Drones
only droning = 8drones+1overlord = 9larve per 8drones = 9/8*15sec larve spam = 16.88 drone construction time, exl. queen+drones waisted on buildings, larve spended on army.

howlong does it take, if build queen and get queen-larve at 5 min 30sec, before you have same mounth of drones, (based on infinite resorces) as toss or terran?
vs toss:
5min +30sec / 14.45 = 22.84 probs are build
5min30sec / 16.88sec = 19.55 probes are build
22.84-19.55=3.29 drones behind, at 5.30
3.555 drones are buid per min
4.15 probes are build per min
4.15-3.555 = 0.6 drones are less build per min
queen = 1larve per 11 seconds = 5.45 drones per min can be build from inject-larve = 9.01 drone per min are build from hatchery and from queen after 5.30min
9.01-4.15=4.86

(3.29 drone behind + 1drones waisted on pool+1drone on expansion or gas or whatever+1/4 larve waisted on queen supply) / 4.86extra drones past the 5.30min mark = 1.14min ontop of the 5.30mark
its about 6min to 6min38seconds before you have same amounth of drones created at the main, if not build army and more then 2structures then toss or terran

my expo is not only a expo, its also a tactical building/proxy hatchery/safe heaven for army-kiting-drone-killer-base-traders, like explained before,
so consider it a free expansion!
its about 6 to 6.30 in the game,
howlong does it take, before building a drone give me benefits?
this drone is a low drone counth = maximum income per drone = 45minirals per min at maximum

50min for drone + 0 free larve+13.25minrials for supply and 1/8larve for supply = 63.25 minirals needed t build this drone, and not spended on army
so to benefit from it, you need to urn this drone and urn 63.25 minrials for army
63.25*2/45 +17sec construction time = 3minites and 6seconds before a drone construction gives benefits
meanwhile this drone is trying to give benfits later ingame, it can be destroyed.

i plan my attack at 8min 30sec, my proxy hatchery finish at 4minites (builded before pool)
from 4min to 5min30sec its beneficial for me to create drones,
if i create a queen for larve-inject, the larve will come atm its not usefull anymore to build drones, at 5.30


this mass droning, to create queens and larve and exp, is not to create a great economie urly game, its to create mass zergling suwisde army ''mid''-game
its not logic to build 4min units at 9-10min, and swarmhosts not need you to have mass amounth of larve
if you add that up to gethor: urly agression+low larve needs+economie based on maximum income at minimum costs
there is totaly no need for inject larve-suturned expansions-


you have more income (optinal production) then opponent, if have more drones
but, your army value is opponent army value - (extra expo and worker costs - income gained sofar, from the workers you have more then your opponent)



i play for fun, you are not fun!
so you can not pown me 11-0 is the reason your selfexpresion is under avarage?


i should have partitioned my post...

i was talking about that game vs that zerg u posted screenshots against...where you lost to his 2 spines on the high ground. I said you should have expanded instead:

1. he would have been slower in expanding
2. he committed 2 drones + minerals for the 2 spine crawlers. id do some tommy-style math here, but it's just not necessary to be that specific lol.


as for vs the toss, it's is always better to either do a quick 3 base (if forge expand) or a quick 2 base if he's going gateway first. the proxy hatch with the swarmhosts just doesn't have enough eco behind it to make it viable on 1 base... you will find that your early pressure strats like this are working now...but they will not work later. if i dont see a NATURAL expansion outside your main, I'm going to make my army warp out much faster because I will INSTANTLY know that you are doing something strange. I will have a robo down asap, with at least 4 gates and my own expansion coming/slightly delayed. then I will just kill your swarmhosts/lings with forcefields and an ob or 2 (controlling it so it doesn't die to spores).
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Jun 5 2013 03:30pm
we gone look at it this way:
it takes over 500+resorces to protect the main against drone-sniper-army-kiters!
i am talking: 150spine+150spine+250on spores+313swarmhost (excl. larve costs) = 863 resorces
andwhat are we protecting, that can not be build at proxy? pool+2extractors+drones+main = 750resorces+drones
thats a shitload of resorces i leave behind!

i am already building my lair+infestor pit at my proxy hatchery, delaying me only for 5sec or something
sometimes my main get attacked just before i plan on attacking myself, when somehow i not realy was planning to protect my main.
and then i pull my drones from main to proxy, loozing alot of it, lets say 1000resorces lost, couse main is destroyed,
and even then the chance for winning are still great.

Let plan this shit!
Lets hope for it, that opponent comes destroy the main!
Let's keep the casualties at zero, and not allow drone-sniping-army-kiting units be effective
Lets Evacuate everything, exept the main itself
You may say, just build that pool, and sacrafice 600minirals instead of 350? then you also should build thouse extractors, orelse, urly pool not benefits urly swarmhost.

yes, traveling drones cost resorces, same for loosing the main,
but like i told, you do damage prevention from 1000 to 350, if get attacked, and thats the only chance to looze.
i am talking, you not even need defending the main, saving another 863resorces
and its not that we need a mining spot, since the proxy was not realy a mining spot, so now it can become a mining spot sooner!
yes, we delay tec, at least it looks like it, but then again, if tec is there, we nn mass resorces as before. this allow tec sooner whit lower income.

i was delaying my urly swarmhost i had in team-games, for 1vs1, to have some defence vs his drone-snipers
i could use this delay for Evacuation!


now the real teoriecraft can start,

when is the point, that a income/tec breakpoint must be reached?
basicly thats, when hatchery finish, you need 200minirals to build a pool, and when pool finish, you need 150minirals+100gas for Lair
what income is needed to allow urly hatchery be build, and to allow followed up building be constructed whitout a cash-delay?

now, to get 100gas in the build time of pool-extractor, you will need 6gas drones, i used to use this in 1-base
a great alternative, is to time the extractor to finish just when hatchery finish, then 3 drones will collect 100 gas in pool-build-time

we wana build a hatchery asap, since it takes 100second to complete, before pool can be made
spawning pool takes 65seconds to complete
80sec to complete Lair

Now when pool is under construction, just after hatchery finished:
3 workers on gass
and 42income per min per worker = 0.7minirals per second per worker
150=65sec pool *0.7minrials per sec*numbers of drones needed to collect minirals
numbers of drones needed to collect minirals = 3.29
ofc this seems not be a problem, to collect that ! but keep in mind, this is also a nice time to bring drones from main to proxy
so basicly this means that you want this to happen when proxy hatchery finish: your extractor finish + 7mining drones arive + 1pool drone arive and build pool+bring remaining drones from main
as a better option, you can arive 3 gas drones only, and when pull drones, you keep 4 of them atmain, untill 4 of them have arived at proxy

this way, you allow more drones to mine, when collecting minirals for spawning pool+drone build at main

when hatchery start construction: 100seconds
you need to collect 250minrials for pool
25+50 for extractor
and you even want to drone+overlord up, at 1larve per 15sec
thats 100sec/15sec=6.7larve that spawns = 100+5*50 = upto 350minrials can be spended

325minrials = (100sec*0.7*drones)
drones needed to collect pool+extractor money+2drones = 5.36
thouse 2drones collect miniral themselfs, this is to compensate the minrial lost from the 5 drones that need to travel to proxy to build+mine gas

drone income, if build 6drones = 3avg drone*0.7*(100-17sec drone build) = 174
drones needed to collect this 350-174 = 176 extra minirals are needed to support drone-up
176 = (100sec*0.7*drones)
drones needed to support drone-build = 2.51

total drones needed before hatchery construction can start = 2.51+5.36 +1 for hatchery = 8.87
that means, in teorie, that a 9or10 hatchery will not delay swarmhost tec

+/-
(300hatchery+3*50drone)/(8.5drone are mining as avg?*0.7income per drone per sec) = 75seconds

1spine at proxy, and a little bad micro, some more income to spent on larve saved up when save money for hatch, make a 10 hatchery
500/(9drones as avg*0.7) = 80seconds

build drones upto10supply
80sec then build hatchery (thats just 1.33 larve waisted(20sec))
ofc now overlords+drones
150sec extractor
180sec pool
245sec lair+Spine
325sec infestor pit+creep queen
375sec swarmhosts+spore
415sec attack = 6minite 55seconds
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