Quote (G_Eagle @ Mar 20 2014 01:23pm)

as long as mothership core exists this game is broken.

wol toss= needed to make units to expand
hots toss= needs to make 1 msc until 830

even with blink same problem, no msc vision= they need robo and it becomes easier to hold.

Quote (BardOfXiix @ Mar 20 2014 03:16pm)

Yes, in TvP.  Not in TvZ.

I grant you TvP will not be significantly different due to free auto-cannon, because people struggle with adapting builds to expect the overcharge...so planning the REAL timing for after the MSC drops its load and just doing an earlier poke without the stim upgrade in order to bait out the overcharge.  May or may not be feasible, depending on the opening P does (as I already said) due to the increased time P has to react (e.g. only realistic against a Nexus first opening as the gates and core will be late + the Protoss will be fiscally constrained).  So stim timing in TvP won't open up a new standard T opener.  You are right and I admit being in the wrong on this point.

But let's focus on TvZ, which has only seen three significant early-game changes:  queen range, overlord speed, and earlier spore crawlers.

Quote (NoLimit028 @ Mar 20 2014 04:33pm)

I try to imagine playing a ZvT with terran having the possibility to get stim 30 seconds earlier than normal, and I really don't see much of anything changing.

Unless he's going super all in, those 30 seconds can't change much.

If he doesn't open with some early CC's he's behind with or without the completion of stim.

But then again, I'm struggling in my god damn diamond league so idk.

Quote (Nevada @ Mar 20 2014 03:39pm)

People would go back to a fast expand into a 4-5 rax push after expand with 2 tech lab rines rauder a la sCfOu

I used to do that in WOL long time ago lol

Quote (NoLimit028 @ 20 Mar 2014 21:40)

Yeah, when nobody knew how to play the game.

I don't see it working out now.

Quote (NoLimit028 @ Mar 20 2014 01:33pm)

I try to imagine playing a ZvT with terran having the possibility to get stim 30 seconds earlier than normal, and I really don't see much of anything changing.

Unless he's going super all in, those 30 seconds can't change much.

If he doesn't open with some early CC's he's behind with or without the completion of stim.

But then again, I'm struggling in my god damn diamond league so idk.

Quote (BardOfXiix @ Mar 20 2014 04:03pm)

Well he's not expanding, that's the whole concept behind a 1 base timing attack.  He is "behind" only if his opponent survives with 3 bases OR crushes the attack without losing any eco (retains 2 queens and doesn't lose mass drones holding).  If he fails the attack, and Zerg is on 2 bases (I honestly do not see any scenario where a 3 base Zerg has enough to survive this, but I could be off about the timing), both players expand and the game proceeds to roughly normalize, but only if the Terran accomplishes little to nothing with the attack (which again, I don't see happening).  Otherwise, the Terran should come out ahead--ahead workers, or even on bases (which is "ahead" against Zerg), or just flat out ends the game with the timing because Zerg doesn't have enough defenses.

Quote (NoLimit028 @ Mar 20 2014 02:09pm)

I think if terran tries to hit a 1 base timing with his 30 seconds earlier stim I think he'd be the one severely behind or just lose right there.

Quote (BardOfXiix @ 20 Mar 2014 22:45)

I'll need to time it out and then watch a few games of Zerg players to see what they would have (in terms of potential) at the point at which the attack should hit.