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Jun 13 2016 07:00pm
Quote (dwalk1989 @ Jun 13 2016 06:53pm)
Nothing stopping them from playing old games. Look at Melee. You have to have a 20 year old TV that weighs 80lbs just to play it but that game is bigger than both bw and sc2.


fighting games in general are bigger than RTS games right now, but theres another factor you aren't considering in view counts
melee is large on twitch, but it has never been consistently televised on any network like starcraft has

60% of south korea's youth has either seen or played a starcraft game, it's on TV, it's at the local cafe, it's at school, it's in their home via a family member, it's everywhere.

starcraft doesn't need twitch at all to have high view counts, but because it's not a easily accessed statistic like view counts on twitch it is easily overlooked,

melee's popularity boils down to a couple things,

1. brawl was trash and the FGC immediately retconned it
2. smash 4 is also bad, albeit better than brawl enough to be playable.

melee is the most playable game they have currently.
also look at how well fighting games in general are doing right now?
the FGC is the largest it's ever been and not just melee but every game pulls high view counts on tournament days.

i bet at EVO this year, smash, SFV and marvel/guilty gear will all pull 70-140k views for each game during their scheduled periods.
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Jun 13 2016 07:19pm
Quote (Sasori @ Jun 13 2016 08:00pm)
fighting games in general are bigger than RTS games right now, but theres another factor you aren't considering in view counts
melee is large on twitch, but it has never been consistently televised on any network like starcraft has

60% of south korea's youth has either seen or played a starcraft game, it's on TV, it's at the local cafe, it's at school, it's in their home via a family member, it's everywhere.

starcraft doesn't need twitch at all to have high view counts, but because it's not a easily accessed statistic like view counts on twitch it is easily overlooked,

melee's popularity boils down to a couple things,

1. brawl was trash and the FGC immediately retconned it
2. smash 4 is also bad, albeit better than brawl enough to be playable.

melee is the most playable game they have currently.
also look at how well fighting games in general are doing right now?
the FGC is the largest it's ever been and not just melee but every game pulls high view counts on tournament days.

i bet at EVO this year, smash, SFV and marvel/guilty gear will all pull 70-140k views for each game during their scheduled periods.


I know all about South Korea's weird ass esports system that's glued together by KeSPA. South Korea might be a lost cause because all the major broadcasters are funded and influenced by KeSPA which is funded directly by Blizzard who obviously is more interested in selling a modern 60$ game than an old 20$ battlechest that doesn't even support 1080p. Still, iirc, there is still a streaming scene for BW in South Korea and there is a tournament series that's organized specifically for Brood War. But Korea's situation is not stopping people outside of Korea from restarting an esport scene based around Brood War.

The point of bringing up Melee was to show that you don't need a company like Blizzard or KeSPA to have a thriving scene. If Brood War truly was this fucking masterpiece (it is in some ways, please let me explain), then people would be doing these things.

The RTS genre has a rough go at things because regardless of the IP, usually RTS games have a higher learning curve just to get started. Obviously this makes it difficult to kick start a fresh BW scene. Fighting games obviously don't have this problem.

Now, I consider myself pretty hardcore when I settle on a game and I play SC2 at a reasonably high level, usually averaging somewhere around 280-300 apm. I played Brood War previously but admittedly just enjoyed SC2 a lot more. Not because Blizzard holds annual WCS tournaments for the game with prize pools or because it has a more convenient matchmaking system or because it has a larger playerbase, but because the game is just more intuitive to play. I think that's very important for a competitive game. Legacy of the Void is easily the best version of SC2 that's been released and it has less viewership than WoL had. This is because of the rise of MOBAs. MOBAs are much simpler to play than even SC2, implying that even SC2 isn't intuitive enough for the average consumer. My 'range' of how difficult a game has to be to learn just stops shortly after SC2, I guess.

I don't deny that BW is a beautiful game to watch, but it is far too difficult to learn. BW had its moments of fame and they were glorious, but they are now over. And now SC2 is declining with the changing market and eventually the only shit we'll be able to watch are fucking MOBAs.
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Jun 13 2016 07:26pm
Quote (dwalk1989 @ Jun 13 2016 07:19pm)
I know all about South Korea's weird ass esports system that's glued together by KeSPA. South Korea might be a lost cause because all the major broadcasters are funded and influenced by KeSPA which is funded directly by Blizzard who obviously is more interested in selling a modern 60$ game than an old 20$ battlechest that doesn't even support 1080p. Still, iirc, there is still a streaming scene for BW in South Korea and there is a tournament series that's organized specifically for Brood War. But Korea's situation is not stopping people outside of Korea from restarting an esport scene based around Brood War.

The point of bringing up Melee was to show that you don't need a company like Blizzard or KeSPA to have a thriving scene. If Brood War truly was this fucking masterpiece (it is in some ways, please let me explain), then people would be doing these things.

The RTS genre has a rough go at things because regardless of the IP, usually RTS games have a higher learning curve just to get started. Obviously this makes it difficult to kick start a fresh BW scene. Fighting games obviously don't have this problem.

Now, I consider myself pretty hardcore when I settle on a game and I play SC2 at a reasonably high level, usually averaging somewhere around 280-300 apm. I played Brood War previously but admittedly just enjoyed SC2 a lot more. Not because Blizzard holds annual WCS tournaments for the game with prize pools or because it has a more convenient matchmaking system or because it has a larger playerbase, but because the game is just more intuitive to play. I think that's very important for a competitive game. Legacy of the Void is easily the best version of SC2 that's been released and it has less viewership than WoL had. This is because of the rise of MOBAs. MOBAs are much simpler to play than even SC2, implying that even SC2 isn't intuitive enough for the average consumer. My 'range' of how difficult a game has to be to learn just stops shortly after SC2, I guess.

I don't deny that BW is a beautiful game to watch, but it is far too difficult to learn. BW had its moments of fame and they were glorious, but they are now over. And now SC2 is declining with the changing market and eventually the only shit we'll be able to watch are fucking MOBAs.


i agree with everything said, you're a very educated person, allow me to touch on a couple points though, fighting games aren't exactly easy either, they are easy for beginners to just hop in and play, but the same can be said of starcraft, anybody can sit down and casually play starcrafts campaign, but like all competitive games, the big boy leagues are much harder to play in, melee is a extremely difficult game executionally, the tech is hard to master. but it's intuitive for beginners at the same time and also NOT intuitive, the game itself doesn't teach you tech, or combos, or matchups. things required to excel at the game. street fighter 5 has started down this path alongside a few others and that's what i define as a intuitive game,
mobas are also intuitive, information is easily accessible and the game is free. starcraft has all the information also readily accessible for the average person, but the issue is actually using said information, starcraft is very much a "easier said than done" type scenario.

and to clarify, i think that the harder a game is and the bigger skillgap it has, the better. but i also understand this needs to be balanced with accessibility.
but under the sole definition of which game is "better" my definition will always rest purely on skill required. and fluidity of gameplay.
it's just an opinion at the end of the day.
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Jun 13 2016 07:35pm
Quote (Sasori @ Jun 13 2016 08:26pm)
i agree with everything said, you're a very educated person, allow me to touch on a couple points though, fighting games aren't exactly easy either, they are easy for beginners to just hop in and play, but the same can be said of starcraft, anybody can sit down and casually play starcrafts campaign, but like all competitive games, the big boy leagues are much harder to play in, melee is a extremely difficult game executionally, the tech is hard to master. but it's intuitive for beginners at the same time and also NOT intuitive, the game itself doesn't teach you tech, or combos, or matchups. things required to excel at the game. street fighter 5 has started down this path alongside a few others and that's what i define as a intuitive game,
mobas are also intuitive, information is easily accessible and the game is free. starcraft has all the information also readily accessible for the average person, but the issue is actually using said information, starcraft is very much a "easier said than done" type scenario.

and to clarify, i think that the harder a game is and the bigger skillgap it has, the better. but i also understand this needs to be balanced with accessibility.
but under the sole definition of which game is "better" my definition will always rest purely on skill required. and fluidity of gameplay.
it's just an opinion at the end of the day.


On some level, I feel the same way. That's why I love games like Starcraft and Melee, after all. This is all just bias anyway.
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Jun 14 2016 07:41am
MY top 5 favorite:

1. Warcraft 3: The Fronzen Throne (Still playing this at least once a week :) )
2. Starcraft 2: HotS
3. Age of Empires (All of them)
4. Starcraft: Brood War
5. Total Annihilation: The Core Contingency

If we could have a 6th it would be Command & Conquer Generals just because I loved when the GLA men said: TAKE IT INTO HIGH GEAR

This post was edited by bl4ckw1dow on Jun 14 2016 07:43am
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Jun 14 2016 12:50pm
Quote (bl4ckw1dow @ Jun 14 2016 07:41am)
MY top 5 favorite:

1. Warcraft 3: The Fronzen Throne (Still playing this at least once a week :) )
2. Starcraft 2: HotS
3. Age of Empires (All of them)
4. Starcraft: Brood War
5. Total Annihilation: The Core Contingency

If we could have a 6th it would be Command & Conquer Generals just because I loved when the GLA men said: TAKE IT INTO HIGH GEAR


ANOTHER TOTAL ANNIHILATION PLAYER SQUE

that game was the fucking greatest

and yeah i still play Warcraft 3 like literally all the time, i still dream of warcraft 4 someday
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Jun 15 2016 01:37am
Starcraft 2
Red Alert 2
Age of Mythology / Empires
Your mum
Your dad
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Jun 15 2016 04:00am
Quote (RyanDyerProtein @ Jun 15 2016 01:37am)
Starcraft 2
Red Alert 2
Age of Mythology / Empires
Your mum
Your dad


weirded out rn

2 of my best friends are "ryan" and "dyer"
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Jun 15 2016 05:17am
Quote (Sasori @ Jun 15 2016 06:00pm)
weirded out rn

2 of my best friends are "ryan" and "dyer"


youre an idiot
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Jun 15 2016 09:15am
Quote (Sasori @ Jun 14 2016 02:50pm)
ANOTHER TOTAL ANNIHILATION PLAYER SQUE

that game was the fucking greatest

and yeah i still play Warcraft 3 like literally all the time, i still dream of warcraft 4 someday


i heard some1 was making a mod for wc3 that amplifies the graphics similiar to that of sc2 system, saw a youtube clip on it. pretty neat KKona
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rr1GpV2rCg
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