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Oct 6 2013 01:57am
sc2 was streamlined so a lot of the things the bw pros could do became less impressive.
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Oct 6 2013 02:36am
Quote (BardOfXiix @ Oct 5 2013 05:19pm)
Part of it can be narrowed down to mechanics.  SCBW was a much more micro-intensive game.  It featured more multi-area fights because huge groups of units were hard to control (there would often be 2-3 battles going on at different expansions, or multiple drops and such).  The unit cap aided in this, as well as in further unit control requirements.

Also, the spellcasters were more diverse and more widely used.  Swarm was really good.  The arbiter had cool mechanics that could be used in multiple ways.  Basically, the spellcasters in SC2 deal damage, and people cry if they do other things (fungal, I'm looking at you).  The unique abilities of these spells (and their crowd control effects) allowed for more "epic" moments in games.

Finally, the map design was vastly different.  In SC2, every map has a few easily defensible choke points and in HotS changes were made to make it even easier to hold these (win-d'oh mines, ezpz cannon).  In SCBW?  Rushes much more viable (but still fairly rare, the game was a macro game as well).  Maps with multiple areas of attack made it possible for such strats to work well. 

There are a few more points that can be made surrounding some of the unit design ideas as well (thors suck, colossi are fucking good, ultras are situationally useful/broods are a win or lose decision), but I'll leave that for a later rant.

I think the biggest thing that we have to remember is historical perspective.  Starcraft and SCBW were groundbreakingly good games when they came out.  Like, mind-blowing awesome.  The unique gameplay opportunities and cool graphics (they were cool) drew a large following initially.  Also, DotA didn't exist at the point of SC release.  MOBAS weren't a thing.  There were significantly fewer good alternative games, and even fewer competitive games at the time (but now e-sports is massive).  This meant that if you wanted to be serious about video games, you played SCBW or an FPS.

Since SCBW, the gaming industry has really exploded.  More developers, more alternative choices, more epic games with epic graphics and epic mechanics.  Games are reaching a larger audience, and an audience that doesn't have the patience or the dedication to get good at a game, so they play "social" games--games where it's common to work WITH friends to succeed, as opposed to playing alone (SC2 is a 1v1 game and you all know it).

So it comes down to a lot of issues.  Lame mechanics and unit design, more alternative choices, and a new "casual" gaming population have basically ousted Starcraft.  I hope that a small dedicated core of gamers continue to play because it's a fantastic game, and I really hope that one day the world comes back to Starcraft and recognizes how cool RTS games really are.

My biggest (personal) problem with SC2, tbh, is that Blizzard seems to be funneling players towards a single playstyle, as opposed to SCBW where players came up with these cool strategies based on cool mechanics.  SC2 took away a lot of the opportunities by dumbing down the spells.


You sir have restored my faith in jsp.
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Oct 6 2013 04:03am
Quote (Perf3ction @ 5 Oct 2013 23:23)
the battles/micro were far superior to sc2.  fights didn't decide games in 5 seconds and you could usually retreat and regroup, extending the game and having a solid chance to win with good future micro.  sc2 is just a huge clash of a big army, with just about no way to retreat and a swift gg.  for example, 1 lost battle as toss vs zerg or terran is usually instantly gg.

the fights were also slower paced (therefore longer) with better natural spread cuz of the engine.  sc2 is a 1a clusterfuck.


and vultures were so goddamn awesome units :cry:
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Oct 6 2013 04:43am
Quote (Cpt_Ghost @ Oct 6 2013 05:03am)
and vultures were so goddamn awesome units :cry:


omg yes xD

the pvt metagame in sc1 was so freakin awesome to watch... dropping zealots on tanks/mines wahahah. too bad there really is NOTHING like this that comes to mind in sc2 pvt... :cry:

my pvts: tech to storm and win, or die horribly just before.
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Oct 6 2013 06:04am
Quote (Perf3ction @ 6 Oct 2013 11:43)
omg yes xD

the pvt metagame in sc1 was so freakin awesome to watch... dropping zealots on tanks/mines wahahah.  too bad there really is NOTHING like this that comes to mind in sc2 pvt...  :cry:

my pvts:  tech to storm and win, or die horribly just before.


being all over the map with mines and vultures, setting up tank lines with turrets and mines, trying to survive
I miss that tvp T_T
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Oct 6 2013 12:47pm
Quote (Pk_Dibbun @ Oct 5 2013 08:31pm)
That was a really good read. Makes a lot of sense, and matches up with the points perfection was making.

At this stage in SC2, what can really be done to change or fix things? If Blizzard were to 'dumb down' the game and make SC2 only be able to Select 16 units at a time, or modified things to be more like SC1. I don't think people would accept it very well.

I do agree however that it always seems to just be about a big huge army clash that decides the game it seems.


HotS is fucked. The only chance at a comeback is LotV, and honestly I think it's too late. But the only way for this game to draw crowds is for some sort of balance to occur at high levels of play, where multiple styles of play for each race are viable again. WoL had some success because Terran players could go bio, mech, marine tank against Zerg, or any of the 3 against Terran. TvP was somewhat static, but on that end Protoss had some variability of whether they would go storm or colossi first, etc. The game really started to tube in WoL with the addition of widow mines and how much they simplified the game for Terran. Also, the infestor nerf wrecked Zerg's ability to go for infestors in the mid game, making it mutas or roach/hydra (which is basically all-in).

I think for LotV, a few things have to happen, one of which is Protoss getting a complete makeover. As it stands, Protoss rely too much on colossi, HTs/archons, and voids, none of which have terribly exciting mechanics. Remove colossi, nerf voids, and bring back the arbiter or something with a d-web like ability. Rework the gateway options to provide more choices of build--maybe add another gateway unit and nerf the zealot's late game somehow (less scaling with attack upgrades?) to encourage variety in the army comps. IMHO the core problem with the TvP and PvZ MUs is colossi, they're just too fucking good to pass up.

Terran requires the widow mine to be reworked fundamentally. These should not be available as a primary army unit. They are a great concept for defense and I even like them on drops, but when a Terran player can build 40 of them, burrow them and bait an army into them and easily clean up? That's a concern for me. Make them slower, make them cost more supply, I don't know. But something's gotta give, these things are too potent. One more point--Terran doesn't *really* have a tier 3. They have two capital ships (BC and thor) but neither provides much game-control (BCs can but they have to be en masse). Zerg and Protoss tier 3 units have excellent splash, so why not give BCs their early-beta missile attack (cost energy to fire a barrage of missiles at ground-based targets) and give thors something more effective against ground troops than their current attack/ability. Then nerf tanks or hellions slightly to compensate for how much better the mech play will be (to encourage some bio style as well) so we still have some variety of build choices.

Finally, Zerg needs ultras to be good. Give them the burrow charge ability so their massive unit size doesn't get derpily stuck on things. Let them walk over allied zerglings and banelings (not roach/hydra, they're larger model sizes). Give them those abilities and I think ultras will become an interesting late game choice for Zergs. Find a way to integrate the brood lord again as well--I think vipers having a blinding cloud range buff would help with this. Think about adding a completely new Zerg caster as well--something innovative, not just dark swarm and consume ported on a flying unit. Have this new unit replace the infestor as Zerg's tier 2 caster. That should give Zerg some options--ling/bling vs roach/hydra, tier 2 choice between muta and this new caster, and finally going into ultras or broods, with vipers as a critical support unit (cloud is really fucking good).

The last thing that I'd like to mention is that the community needs to change their attitude about rushes/"cheeses"/"all-ins" (which nobody seems to have any concept of anymore, and anything that is truly a timing attack is now termed an all-in). These are valid strategies that should be exercised more to punish greedy players for playing stupidly greedy. But there's this stigma against using all-ins in tournament play which needs to end. Balance isn't just something Blizzard controls--it's up to the community to find a way to beat some of these strategies, and we have the tools to do so right here. We just have to be more inventive about killing people before they can complete their build. It will bring more early-game excitement and more intense micro, which I think everyone is yearning for in Starcraft.
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Oct 6 2013 09:49pm
Quote (BardOfXiix @ Oct 6 2013 01:47pm)
HotS is fucked.  The only chance at a comeback is LotV, and honestly I think it's too late.  But the only way for this game to draw crowds is for some sort of balance to occur at high levels of play, where multiple styles of play for each race are viable again.  WoL had some success because Terran players could go bio, mech, marine tank against Zerg, or any of the 3 against Terran.  TvP was somewhat static, but on that end Protoss had some variability of whether they would go storm or colossi first, etc.  The game really started to tube in WoL with the addition of widow mines and how much they simplified the game for Terran.  Also, the infestor nerf wrecked Zerg's ability to go for infestors in the mid game, making it mutas or roach/hydra (which is basically all-in).

I think for LotV, a few things have to happen, one of which is Protoss getting a complete makeover.  As it stands, Protoss rely too much on colossi, HTs/archons, and voids, none of which have terribly exciting mechanics.  Remove colossi, nerf voids, and bring back the arbiter or something with a d-web like ability.  Rework the gateway options to provide more choices of build--maybe add another gateway unit and nerf the zealot's late game somehow (less scaling with attack upgrades?) to encourage variety in the army comps.  IMHO the core problem with the TvP and PvZ MUs is colossi, they're just too fucking good to pass up.

Terran requires the widow mine to be reworked fundamentally.  These should not be available as a primary army unit.  They are a great concept for defense and I even like them on drops, but when a Terran player can build 40 of them, burrow them and bait an army into them and easily clean up?  That's a concern for me.  Make them slower, make them cost more supply, I don't know.  But something's gotta give, these things are too potent.  One more point--Terran doesn't *really* have a tier 3.  They have two capital ships (BC and thor) but neither provides much game-control (BCs can but they have to be en masse).  Zerg and Protoss tier 3 units have excellent splash, so why not give BCs their early-beta missile attack (cost energy to fire a barrage of missiles at ground-based targets) and give thors something more effective against ground troops than their current attack/ability.  Then nerf tanks or hellions slightly to compensate for how much better the mech play will be (to encourage some bio style as well) so we still have some variety of build choices.

Finally, Zerg needs ultras to be good.  Give them the burrow charge ability so their massive unit size doesn't get derpily stuck on things.  Let them walk over allied zerglings and banelings (not roach/hydra, they're larger model sizes).  Give them those abilities and I think ultras will become an interesting late game choice for Zergs.  Find a way to integrate the brood lord again as well--I think vipers having a blinding cloud range buff would help with this.  Think about adding a completely new Zerg caster as well--something innovative, not just dark swarm and consume ported on a flying unit.  Have this new unit replace the infestor as Zerg's tier 2 caster.  That should give Zerg some options--ling/bling vs roach/hydra, tier 2 choice between muta and this new caster, and finally going into ultras or broods, with vipers as a critical support unit (cloud is really fucking good). 

The last thing that I'd like to mention is that the community needs to change their attitude about rushes/"cheeses"/"all-ins" (which nobody seems to have any concept of anymore, and anything that is truly a timing attack is now termed an all-in).  These are valid strategies that should be exercised more to punish greedy players for playing stupidly greedy.  But there's this stigma against using all-ins in tournament play which needs to end.  Balance isn't just something Blizzard controls--it's up to the community to find a way to beat some of these strategies, and we have the tools to do so right here.  We just have to be more inventive about killing people before they can complete their build.  It will bring more early-game excitement and more intense micro, which I think everyone is yearning for in Starcraft.



I read all of this and I agree with nearly all of it. Great points.
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Oct 7 2013 12:37am
Read this: http://fortheloveofstarcraft.tumblr.com/

It's a blog that talks about why broodwar was so amazingly popular and why it has such an incredibly high skill ceiling.
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Oct 7 2013 03:49pm
Quote (BardOfXiix @ 6 Oct 2013 19:47)
HotS is fucked.  The only chance at a comeback is LotV, and honestly I think it's too late.  But the only way for this game to draw crowds is for some sort of balance to occur at high levels of play, where multiple styles of play for each race are viable again.  WoL had some success because Terran players could go bio, mech, marine tank against Zerg, or any of the 3 against Terran.  TvP was somewhat static, but on that end Protoss had some variability of whether they would go storm or colossi first, etc.  The game really started to tube in WoL with the addition of widow mines and how much they simplified the game for Terran.  Also, the infestor nerf wrecked Zerg's ability to go for infestors in the mid game, making it mutas or roach/hydra (which is basically all-in).

I think for LotV, a few things have to happen, one of which is Protoss getting a complete makeover.  As it stands, Protoss rely too much on colossi, HTs/archons, and voids, none of which have terribly exciting mechanics.  Remove colossi, nerf voids, and bring back the arbiter or something with a d-web like ability.  Rework the gateway options to provide more choices of build--maybe add another gateway unit and nerf the zealot's late game somehow (less scaling with attack upgrades?) to encourage variety in the army comps.  IMHO the core problem with the TvP and PvZ MUs is colossi, they're just too fucking good to pass up.

Terran requires the widow mine to be reworked fundamentally.  These should not be available as a primary army unit.  They are a great concept for defense and I even like them on drops, but when a Terran player can build 40 of them, burrow them and bait an army into them and easily clean up?  That's a concern for me.  Make them slower, make them cost more supply, I don't know.  But something's gotta give, these things are too potent.  One more point--Terran doesn't *really* have a tier 3.  They have two capital ships (BC and thor) but neither provides much game-control (BCs can but they have to be en masse).  Zerg and Protoss tier 3 units have excellent splash, so why not give BCs their early-beta missile attack (cost energy to fire a barrage of missiles at ground-based targets) and give thors something more effective against ground troops than their current attack/ability.  Then nerf tanks or hellions slightly to compensate for how much better the mech play will be (to encourage some bio style as well) so we still have some variety of build choices.

Finally, Zerg needs ultras to be good.  Give them the burrow charge ability so their massive unit size doesn't get derpily stuck on things.  Let them walk over allied zerglings and banelings (not roach/hydra, they're larger model sizes).  Give them those abilities and I think ultras will become an interesting late game choice for Zergs.  Find a way to integrate the brood lord again as well--I think vipers having a blinding cloud range buff would help with this.  Think about adding a completely new Zerg caster as well--something innovative, not just dark swarm and consume ported on a flying unit.  Have this new unit replace the infestor as Zerg's tier 2 caster.  That should give Zerg some options--ling/bling vs roach/hydra, tier 2 choice between muta and this new caster, and finally going into ultras or broods, with vipers as a critical support unit (cloud is really fucking good). 

The last thing that I'd like to mention is that the community needs to change their attitude about rushes/"cheeses"/"all-ins" (which nobody seems to have any concept of anymore, and anything that is truly a timing attack is now termed an all-in).  These are valid strategies that should be exercised more to punish greedy players for playing stupidly greedy.  But there's this stigma against using all-ins in tournament play which needs to end.  Balance isn't just something Blizzard controls--it's up to the community to find a way to beat some of these strategies, and we have the tools to do so right here.  We just have to be more inventive about killing people before they can complete their build.  It will bring more early-game excitement and more intense micro, which I think everyone is yearning for in Starcraft.


I agree on some points, protoss shouldn't rely that much on high tech stuff like it does in sc2
I think the old zealot and dragoon should be put back, the sentry should get changed. Sentries are also responsible for protoss being only able to fight in deathballs.
Blink should be removed while buffing gateway units therefore they won't be overpowered if anything comes through.
For the terran I think widowmines should just be changed back to spider mines, having them cost more supply just isn't a good solution, also thor should be changed to goliath, and imo chrono boost, mules and queens should be removed.
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Oct 7 2013 04:02pm
Quote (BardOfXiix @ Oct 6 2013 01:47pm)
HotS is fucked.  The only chance at a comeback is LotV, and honestly I think it's too late.  But the only way for this game to draw crowds is for some sort of balance to occur at high levels of play, where multiple styles of play for each race are viable again.  WoL had some success because Terran players could go bio, mech, marine tank against Zerg, or any of the 3 against Terran.  TvP was somewhat static, but on that end Protoss had some variability of whether they would go storm or colossi first, etc.  The game really started to tube in WoL with the addition of widow mines and how much they simplified the game for Terran.  Also, the infestor nerf wrecked Zerg's ability to go for infestors in the mid game, making it mutas or roach/hydra (which is basically all-in).

I think for LotV, a few things have to happen, one of which is Protoss getting a complete makeover.  As it stands, Protoss rely too much on colossi, HTs/archons, and voids, none of which have terribly exciting mechanics.  Remove colossi, nerf voids, and bring back the arbiter or something with a d-web like ability.  Rework the gateway options to provide more choices of build--maybe add another gateway unit and nerf the zealot's late game somehow (less scaling with attack upgrades?) to encourage variety in the army comps.  IMHO the core problem with the TvP and PvZ MUs is colossi, they're just too fucking good to pass up.

Terran requires the widow mine to be reworked fundamentally.  These should not be available as a primary army unit.  They are a great concept for defense and I even like them on drops, but when a Terran player can build 40 of them, burrow them and bait an army into them and easily clean up?  That's a concern for me.  Make them slower, make them cost more supply, I don't know.  But something's gotta give, these things are too potent.  One more point--Terran doesn't *really* have a tier 3.  They have two capital ships (BC and thor) but neither provides much game-control (BCs can but they have to be en masse).  Zerg and Protoss tier 3 units have excellent splash, so why not give BCs their early-beta missile attack (cost energy to fire a barrage of missiles at ground-based targets) and give thors something more effective against ground troops than their current attack/ability.  Then nerf tanks or hellions slightly to compensate for how much better the mech play will be (to encourage some bio style as well) so we still have some variety of build choices.

Finally, Zerg needs ultras to be good.  Give them the burrow charge ability so their massive unit size doesn't get derpily stuck on things.  Let them walk over allied zerglings and banelings (not roach/hydra, they're larger model sizes).  Give them those abilities and I think ultras will become an interesting late game choice for Zergs.  Find a way to integrate the brood lord again as well--I think vipers having a blinding cloud range buff would help with this.  Think about adding a completely new Zerg caster as well--something innovative, not just dark swarm and consume ported on a flying unit.  Have this new unit replace the infestor as Zerg's tier 2 caster.  That should give Zerg some options--ling/bling vs roach/hydra, tier 2 choice between muta and this new caster, and finally going into ultras or broods, with vipers as a critical support unit (cloud is really fucking good). 

The last thing that I'd like to mention is that the community needs to change their attitude about rushes/"cheeses"/"all-ins" (which nobody seems to have any concept of anymore, and anything that is truly a timing attack is now termed an all-in).  These are valid strategies that should be exercised more to punish greedy players for playing stupidly greedy.  But there's this stigma against using all-ins in tournament play which needs to end.  Balance isn't just something Blizzard controls--it's up to the community to find a way to beat some of these strategies, and we have the tools to do so right here.  We just have to be more inventive about killing people before they can complete their build.  It will bring more early-game excitement and more intense micro, which I think everyone is yearning for in Starcraft.


SC:BW and SC2 are very similar in that they both have universally "correct" ways to play each matchup

It was always just much more impressive in SC:BW when a player (like Flash) could always go macro and always win because of how much harder it was to macro in that game

honestly, there are more builds in sc2 that are aimed at snagging a win in a bo3/bo5, that are based around some kind of timing attack that happens to coincide with a weak point of a trending playstyle, than there were in BW. And that's just because in SC2, it's much easier to execute these kinds of strategies perfectly than it was in BW.

i don't think any decent player has any "stigma" against these kinds of strategies in a tournament situation because they just work and are smart builds to have in your arsenal. it's when people use these kinds of builds in a ladder environment over and over again.
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