Tipping 10fg to the best 5 responses

So we all know those vurtne frost mage vids, the rogue ones, the warrior ones, etc.

I have a few questions though...

1) Back in 2004, it was more likely than not that people in pvp would keyboard turn / click their abilities...now it is not the case. Basically pvp is at a much higher level in 2019 versus 2004. Therefore, do you think the class OP'ness is the same? Are warriors still gimped in solo pvp situations?

2) How much do rogues rely on long cooldowns?

3) Do mages still suffer from lack of mana during fights?

4) People say a warrior is OP when geared...how hard is it for a warrior to gear to a satisfactory level? Is it possible for a casually warrior?

1) well yes, things are a bit different nowadays, we're talking about an old game, and there's gonna be a lot of oldtimers coming back. still, at the end of the day, there's always good players and bad players, and the most impactful thing is going to be player skill. I mean think about it, in this day and age, information is readily available everywhere, the best players are literally livestreaming everything they do, yet that doesn't mean you can just copy everything they do - you can try to imitate it but it doesn't mean you'll succeed, because you're not them, and you're probably just not that skilled, so yea. with that said, is class OP-ness the same? I mean sure mostly it is, it's always been a rock-paper-scissors thing for the most part. warrior gimped in solo? maybe not gimped but not the best. obviously, they truly shine with healer/dispeller support.

2) a lot. they're THE cd class.

3) not really. you will either be dead before that happens or you have bursted down the opponent(s). for 1vX there's evo/mana gem/pots and other consumables... other specs suffer much more from mana inefficiency, like let's say a balance resto hybrid druid.

4) no it's not. casual? forget it... you need to grind hard bg and/or raids for best gear, besides warr is one of the most popular class(I believe you can look up some statistics and verify like private wow servers for example), so you're gonna have a lot of competition...

Sent a tip, but a few comments.

By rogues being the cd class, are they kind of 'wet-noodly' if they don't have their cooldowns (blind, prep)?

4) I thought warr was the most popular class because it's the selected class for new characters...to clarify, people that make bank alts tend to just use warriors because it's already selected. I feel like that skews the data?

Here is an email from a good buddy of mine from July 10th 2006, so this is right before TBC was released, idk what patch this is tho, but probably close to 1.12. Really good analysis of rogue in PVP, complete with the un-PC language of the era:

Yo, if you get like 5 mins, just read the bottom part, its PVE perspective. It’s a pretty good post. Yea, it’s a lot about endgame stuff but it does address some problems that I face at times.

What it doesn’t touch on a lot is PVP. It’s a mostly PVE type post but as far as PVP goes, here’s my opinion:

1) 5 min cooldowns are stupid. All other class abilities to break our 5 MINUTE CD OF VANISH!!! are 10 secs at most. You know what they are, I don’t have to list them. Then there’s sprint. Wow, great. Boom hamstring. Boom root. Boom, hit the mage and your frost’d. boom, deathcoil, fear. Boom, grounding totem. boom, scatter shot or wing clip. All abilities to absolutely rape and kite the shit out of us after we just blew a 5 minute cooldown. Blind… great if you’re 1v1ing. That seems to happen a ton in the battlegrounds. All these abilities are made for world PVP 1 on 1 which is retarded.

2) Kitability – already addressed with sprint being on a 5 minute timer. Fuck, you a warrior can kite the shit out of me, you could rend and hamstring me and watch me die.

3) Our poisons – BUT YOU HAVE CRIPPLING POISON! It lands 10% of the time and can be parried, dodged, or resisted. All the other snares are talents aka hamstring and wingclip and can be dodged, parried, or resisted 10% of the time. A HUGE difference. I’d give away sprint to have hamstring.

4) And as far as vanish goes – any spell hit, resisted, your gay warrior shouts break vanish. 5 minute CD boom, gone. AUTOATTACK breaks vanish for fucks sake. If you send a pet to attack a rogue and he vanishes or stealths, the pet sees right thru it.

Yes, the talent review is making vanish break hunters mark. Oh boy, now they only have flare to break our stealth. The talent review is also giving us talents to make sprint break snaring effects and poisons be applied more often. Oh boy, I have to put 20 pts into the combat tree to blow 2 more pts into that to get this sprint thing. Great, now my poisons are applied 20% of the time and can still be dodged, parried, or resisted.

I know when you and james were doing world PVP and you made it seem like james was taking 4 ppl down in 10 seconds. It takes AT LEAST 3-4 ambush/backstab combos, assuming ¾ crit which is high, doing pure damage and wasting ZERO energy into stuns, etc assuming they’re afk and don’t run. 3-4 backstabs is 18-24 energy. 18-24 energy takes 18-24 seconds to generate. There is no way james was killing people in 6 seconds like you might have thought it was. 18-24 seconds in pvp is a lifetime, as data would put it. That’s only for one person, too.

As far as survivability goes, yes we sacrifice dmg for survivability but its funny to see cloth classes have as much armor as us. Yes, they are very close. Every cloth class has an armor buffing ability. Mages have two, mage armor and something else. Priests have inner fire. Warlocks have demon armor. With these buffs, they have EXTREMELY close armor to us and they NEVER have to be within melee range, at all.

Fact is, the only time james will really kill someone is if they have 60% or less health and you crit twice. Yes, his crit % on ambush and backstab is around 70% but if you don’t kill them in the first opening two seconds with the ambush/backstab, you’re feared, scatter shotted, deathcoiled, frost proc’ by hitting a mage, hammer’d, and dead.

People say that stealth is our biggest ability WHICH IT IS, but breaking stealth has become so easy it’s a joke. It’s basically like stripping our main ability in two seconds. You might think that im just saying oh, it’s the grass is greener thing, which I totally agree does happen 80% of the time, but these things are serious problems for the rogue. That’s why I play the lock so much, because it’s just so damn sad to play the rogue with all these problems.

Do you think that the devs will address the stealth / vanish bugs that were present in classic? Have they so far?>

1) balance changes with people's average skill level, so i doubt it'd produce the same result in today's standards but considering how the average person underperforms in pvp i don't think it will make much of a difference in world pvp or bg situations since theres no rated arena in classic
2) well a lot, but they have a lot of it so they are good
3) hopefully yes
4) that depends if you are willing to tank raids and dungeons, should be pretty easy, as a dps i guess it's not too bad either
vanilla is a pretty casual game mechanics wise overall, but it obviously depends on how much time you spend on achieving your goal, i'd say it's possible at whatever rate to get gear but it will obviously take longer the less time you play


i think not, they don't intend to fix bugs like this
it's a feature now

This post was edited by Cpt_Ghost on May 24 2019 12:16pm

So, my buddy wrote that in July of 2006. That was during patch 1.11. August of 2006 is when patch 1.12 was released. That is the patch wow classic will run on. Apparently, the rogue talents were completely re-vamped and they were awarded a free re-spec.

ah I see

Hey dark-diabal, I'll take a swing at your questions, but I think there are some things to discuss first.

Like you mentioned in your post, the skill level discrepancy between ~2004-2006 and 2019 is enormous. But, skill incorporates several aspects of the game:

• A player's knowledge of their own class talents and abilities, what they do/how they work
  
• A player's knowledge of the other class talents and abilities, what THEY can do/how THEY work
  
• A player's knowledge of game mechanics
  
• A player's ability to react advantageously in combat given certain circumstances
  
• A player's ability to prioritize abilities or sequences of abilities to maximize survivability, which kind of ties into the previous point
  

In general, the player base as improved in all of these areas. Players are much better at 'the game' now than they were in Vanilla. Which results in, like you said, a much higher level of PvP.

Apart from these changes that players have undergone, there is also the changes in the state of the game to consider.
Classic on patch 1.12 will not be a mirror image of Vanilla 1.12. Very similar, but not identical. Changes/differences are being discussed by the community at large, and I will only touch on a few key points in this discussion.



There is no doubt that some classes are stronger than others in 1v1 or 1vX situations. For instance: Mages, Warlocks and Hunters all have abilities that allow them to isolate targets and attack from range. Which can provide an enormous advantage.

However, the general increase in player skill level will reduce the gap in class "OP'ness" - bringing them down a notch or two.
Inversely, the increase in skill level will raise the other classes up a notch or two.

Warriors are obviously very strong should they be left to smash face, but like we mentioned already players are better than they were. They will know better than to let a warrior run rampant. Warriors will always be 'good at damaging stuff' if not the best, but in 1v1 they will have a harder time standing up IMO. More on this in #4.


Interesting question. I believe that this answer depends on the circumstances present. Rogues are another good class that will suffer from an overall increase in player skill. They will always be GOOD when played by players who understand the mechanics inside and out, but to the average player those long cooldowns are usually defining factors in fights (or just surviving). Vanish/blind/sprint are essential in rogue handling, but timing is everything. As mentioned previously every class has an ability to counter one or more of these cooldowns which may render them useless in certain scenarios. Again, circumstantial. Timing and skill are everything here.

Speaking of timing, this is an interesting change that beta players are experiencing: The delay between using an ability, server registering the ability, and implementing it client side - seems to be larger.
Rogue example: Rogue pops vanish at t=0s, JUST as a mage finishes casting frost bolt. Frost bolt travels to rogue, and server recognizes vanish has been used. Frost bolt contacts rogue in vanish at t=0.4s Resulting in a RESIST and successful vanish.

Players are reporting this window to be ~0.3-0.5 seconds (which is up from the ~0.2-0.3 second delay reported in Vanilla) Allowing for more lenient successful vanishes.


Another circumstantial answer. Also, this is oriented at PvP or PvE?
Of course they have evocation, free water, and mana gems to help combat mana shortages when applicable.

But now, as previously mentioned, players are better at gearing and managing mana than they were in 2004-2006.
More players have a better understanding of the dreaded 5-second rule for casters.

Long fights/segments of combat where they cannot drink, and evocation is on cooldown players will have to rely on mana management.

Casters will also be affected by the lenient timing described above. For say, Ice Block or Polymorph

Short version: Less so than 2004-2006, but yes if they aren't careful.


I would tend to agree with 'people' on this one. Warriors are insanely strong ~35 (whirlwind axe era) and again once they are decked out in epics/gg blues - BUT those professor plums (clue reference to purple) will not be available when the game launches.
Thankfully, FRESH means everyone starts on the same footing. Everyone will have roughly the same 'gear level'.
With better gear comes more health. For warriors, more health = more time attacking (potentially, given cc). The longer warriors have to attack the more likely they are to hulk smash some poor soul's face.
So at first warriors will not be 'as much' of a threat. Lesser gears paired with the overall skill increase will make them more manageable.

Warrior tanks will gear up faster than warrior DPS at first (or any other class for that matter). So, if you are able to tank that will increase your chances at loot.
Warrior DPS will have to suffer through the countless PMs of "Can/will you tank?" or "full on warriors" unless you find a group to run/raid consistently.
Casual players are saved by the staggered release schedule of the phases. There will be MONTHS in between the new tiers. Plenty of time for casuals to piece together suitable sets of gear for the next content phase.


This ended up being a tad more long-winded than I planned, but I hope you find it useful.
I'm open to follow ups, just let me know. Good luck, and have fun out there.

1) Common knowledge now. but i think the classes still land around the same, warriors are still gimped solo.
2)Rogues are overpowdered
3)Mages have to use evocation and mana gems in longer fights or 1vx
4)As long as you like raiding or get at least rank 10 you can enjoy a warrior in pvp