What is the goal here? stacking MF? Pure damage?

Like sure the tals setup is nice for mf, but cmoon> any day for damage output

/EDIT

My view on the topic until my question is answered is the following;

For MF PvM purposes, blizz> anyday. It can stack much more MF and still deal pure carnage in P8.

For pure DMG purposes, cmoon> in all cases.

This post was edited by Cersei on Aug 1 2024 02:12pm

Griffon's + Crescent Moon + 17% FCR is crazy strong (but resistances issues)

I guess the main point of this post is the affordability of Tal+facets.

The price difference between a simple Tal set with 3 light facets VS Griffon's (with facet), the HRs in Enigma, and a 17% FCR amulet is massive. (I include Enigma because I don't see the point of a PvM build with barely any MF.)

With these crazy expensive setups, you would only make a lightning sorceress once you find a decent Griffon's. This means that finding Infinity is not enough to make a lightning sorceress. Griffon's is the start of the build which is way too expensive.

If you want to make a PvM MF lightning sorceress as soon as you find Infinity, then keeping full Tal is the best option. Then you might realize that the damage is enough. In fact, once you eventually find Griffon's, you might sell it to gear up another character. Once you find Enigma, instead of equipping it on your sorceress, you might put it on another character since she is already strong enough to MF everything in the game. Why are we trying to MF at players-16?

As for Blizzard sorceresses, they are limited in the areas they can effectively do. You can run Ancient Tunnels 3,000 times, but I don't think Blizzard is faster than lightning in Chaos or Baal runs.

So the journey would be:

1. Blizzard Sorceress
2. Once you find 2 high runes equivalent, you have a choice: either make Infinity or Enigma.
2.a. If you make Enigma, you can make a Hammerdin or Poison Dagger Necro, whatever turns you on, and stay Blizzard.
2.b. If you're in the mood for a lightning sorceress, make Infinity and keep the full Tal Rasha set. Then, just go for 3 light facets. That's the best path to take. You have MF, resistances, and decent damage.
5. Later on, once you find your Griffon's, new high runes, and everything else, you can switch to your trophy character. You can even make the sorceress do insane amounts of damage only to never use her again because she's all damage and no MF.

My point is that the step just before Griffon's Eye is always Full Tal+Facets, nothing else. And for most players that's where it going to stay.

Even on ur fcr ring setup, full tals does not get the 117 breakpoint, thats why

With two fcr ring you reach 125 fcr with full tal

Orb 20 + Armor 10 + Ammy 10 + Belt 10 + Spirit 35 + Gloves 20 + Rings 20

Oof ty i am remember wrong, couldn't t be arsed looking it up

I prefer Tals set over other light sorc builds because higher chance to survive... I don't use map hack, I can not see where monsters are and avoid tele'ing into a bad hoard that could stun me and kill me etc.

However, this is what I try to achieve with the Tal build:

For my own information:

Following Setup: Tals Set / Magefist / 2x FCR rings / Spirit Monarch (35% fcr) & War Travs

Skills: +2 All Skills +6 Sorc Skills / +1-2 Lightning Mastery (each skill [Lightning Mastery] = 12% Lightning Skill Damage = 112% or 120%)
FCR: 125%
Resistences
...Light 143% with 3x Anya Quest / Perfect Anni n Torch
...Cold 110% with 3x Anya Quest / Perfect Anni n Torch
...Fire 075% with 3x Anya Quest / Perfect Anni n Torch
...Poison 070% with 3x Anya Quest / Perfect Anni n Torch
Mana: +268-291 (+10 Energy)
Life: +317 (+32 Vitality)
FHR: 80%
MF: 183-218%
-15% to enemy lightning resistence
3 Socketable items (add 3x 5/5s)
... -15% to enemy lightning resistence / +15% lightning skill damage

So... how much Resistence, life / mana does the other builds have in comparison???

This post was edited by izParagonzi on Aug 3 2024 05:51am

keep in mind that tal arm, amu and -5 rbfs also cost a fortune at the start of ladder. this would not be a budget friendly build, and it's not even close to being as effective as a cmoon build even without griffon.

second point, viper is shit because there's no point to pvm without mf????? what a weird fucking take lmao. mf will help you find more lidless walls, tarnhelms and ik mauls. that's it. it's not going to increase your fg gains or the overall quality of your loot.

at this point play what you want, of course, but there's no logical reasoning behind this tal build you're pitching. it's quite awful by all metrics, in fact

This post was edited by Dolphy on Aug 7 2024 03:49am

I'm gonna assume that you know this is not how MF works and that you're just being disingenuous to help your argument. The MF that helps you find more Lidless Walls will also help you get more Mara's / Griffon's / Shakos, etc.



I don't understand why you say all this, MF is important (this is not something hidden, it's not contested, drop calculators have been around for ages and all the numbers are out there to support this.) Instead, what you could say is that the magic find provided by your build (which comes from Ptopaz Shako + War travs) equals around 120. Compared to the ~200 Magic find from tal set this is a negligible difference. Since MF has diminishing returns, the difference between 120 and 200 is a lot smaller than between 0 to 100. There is no need to say it's weird if one considers MF to be important for PvM. It is important.


Here's the build you're arguing for

Ptopaz Shako
Mara (30 Res)
Crescent Moon
Spirit
Vipermagi (35 res)
Trang Gloves
Arach
War Trav

Magic Find: 125
Resistances: 5 / 60 / 30 / 30 –––– 45 / 75 / 70 / 70 (With perfect Torch and Anni)
Average Damage*: 5 868

–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

Now Full Tal build + 3 Facets

Magic Find: 203
Resistances: 65 / 65 / 75 / 30 –––– 75 / 75 / 75 / 70 (With perfect Torch and Anni)
Average Damage*: 5 942

Tal build has the same damage with 200+ flat hp with more resist and more MF

(*avg damage number is for comparison purposes. It is an average between the average damage of lightning and chain lightning, it takes into account -Res like my post above. It does not include infinity. You can easily add conviction to this number to get your actual average damage)




C'mon man, stop with all the generalized exaggerated statements. There is logical reasoning behind the Tal build and no, it's not awful by all metrics.

–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

The final question then is:

Which one is more expensive? I don't know, it depends on how good or perfect the items are. My guess right now is that Tal is more expensive; if you know, let me know. If someone has the answer to this, please share.

your math is almost as awful as your build

your rationale behind mf is also pure nonsense

you putting a topaz in my shako while using rbfs in your tal is also hilarious

here's the actual damage numbers:

trash tal build lightning avg vs 0 res mob: 50 180 dps
trash tal build lightning avg vs broken immune: 12 287 dps

budget cmoon build WITHOUT GRIFFON lightning avg vs 0 res mob: 54 836 dps
budget cmoon build WITHOUT GRIFFON lightning avg vs broken immune: 16 999 dps

cmoon build WITH GRIFFON lightning avg vs 0 res mob: 52 750 dps
cmoon build WITH GRIFFON lightning avg vs broken immune: 21 587


side note: tal build also has approximately 250 less base mana than the cmoon build that already struggles with mana. have fun with that
you're welcome

What? I'm not going to explain Magic Find right now. What I said about MF is true



It is not hilarious, it's fair for comparison, your build lacked MF. Also, the budgets between the two builds needed to be somewhat similar. Adding extra light facets breaks the argument that your build is more budget friendly. If you want a more expensive build with less magic find thats okay, the build would then be at around 100 MF and you would gain -5/5.



It is 84 less base mana. literally.



Math is either incorrect or correct, are you saying my numbers are wrong? I made sure to use a standard (one that you didn't follow) in order to assure consistency. Make sure to not use any charms except Torch+Anni. Do not use DPS for damage it's not needed and it is less clear. Something else you need to consider is that monsters in D2 arent all 0 light res or all light resistant, they are a varying amount of resistances, quite a lot of them have 60+ res or 75. I weighed this in my number, it is more accurate. I can show you the math if you want.

You seem to have some dogmatic vendetta against Tal Set, I don't understand. The difference between the two isn't the one you seem to be perceiving.

This post was edited by SamIverson on Aug 7 2024 11:19am