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Jun 24 2022 05:05pm
Quote (zarkadon @ 24 Jun 2022 22:54)
That's not what I meant. Of course there is racism everywhere, just like there are other forms of discrimination in every society. What I meant is that, while every country has some degree of a problem with racism, America has it's own problem based on its own social, economic, historical and cultural circumstances. The US' racism problem is not relatable to Europe, even if we too have our own issues with racial discrimination.

The US has a very different history of racism than Europe. Being a former colony, they've coexisted with slavery. They are a country that since its inception has been structured around being a multiethnic society controlled by, and desined to favour, WASPs. Not even 60 years ago, they still had essentially an apartheid regime were blacks couldn't vote or use the same buses and bathrooms than whites (in some states). They've advanced a lot in terms of equality, but the system still punishes blacks in many different ways, derived from this history and the inherently racist structure of the administration current americans have inherited from previous generations.

Furthermore, the whole American approach to combat racism is very different to the European way. Since the days of the Ancient Romans, we've gone for assimilation. There could be a melting pot of ethnicities between italics, gauls, nubians, assyrians, jews, germans, amazighs, greeks, etc... but citizenship was never a racial matter... they were culturally assimilated and became Roman, period. Meanwhile, in the US they promote ethnic pride and culture... anti-racism movements actively promote "african american identity" and the existence of holdays and months dedicated to celebrate their own history and culture.

Your own example of using football as an example of racism in Europe highlights my point regarding the strong differences in racism betwen both sides of the Atlantic. In the US, it would be unconcievable for there to be racist chants in their stadia (which in Italy, btw aren't just targeted at blacks, but also at italians from other regions... like for example, in the North they often chant against Napoli fans calling them dirty cholera bearing gypsies and wish on the Vesuvius to "clean them" with lava). However, the discrimination black people experience in the US by their administration, police, education system, etc.... is something alien to us. I'm not saying we are better or worse than them, but the situation is very different.

So yes, imo we shoudl completely stay away from BLM, kneeling and all that jazz. We should tackle our issues in our own way, and not pretend we have the same issues that Americans do, becuase that will not only not solve our problems, but make them worse.

That, to me is a disaster which we should not import. Let Americans deal with THEIR racism in THEIR own way, while we do it OUR way. Copying their gestures and their approach will lead us to copying their social unrest and problems, which is something we really don't need.


preventing solidarity (class / race / gender...) by artificially prying apart issues that are clearly related, insisting they are fundamentally different, and fear-mongering about the consequences of addressing them, is an old but successful tactic - one that i wholeheartedly reject though. just to be clear, i don't think you're doing it on purpose, but it's clear that you uncritically bought into that narrative which is so popular amongst those that simply don't want to address the issue at all.

that's highly disingenuous and also counter-productive (by design obviously). just because racism takes slightly different forms (we still have racial profiling and discrimination in europe) and is stronger in some areas than in others, doesn't mean it's not an important issue that can't or shouldn't be addressed united.

let me ask you a specific question about a central claim of yours: how exactly does adapting a gesture from the BLM movement make our racism issue worse?! that makes no sense to me. you're telling me that people become racists simply because they see players kneeling or what?

if by worse you simply mean it leads to more controversy regarding the topic, then yes - that's the whole point. i think the reality is that it makes people uncomfortable that we haven't addressed it honestly previously - i've read so many accounts of not just athletes, but also artists, politicians, and regular people talking about how their race affected their everyday lives - the comments and prejudices they have to bear on a daily basis, the scepticism, rejection, and doubts they encountered. personally, i think it's about fucking time we re-thought and tried to eliminate this shit - and sports, arts, and entertainment are great vehicles for it, because that's where our attention goes.

just trying to neatly divide that into sub-divisions of specific forms of racism, have each have their own tiny little voice of respectful protest that doesn't hurt anyone's feelings, won't change anything - which obviously is the desired intention. the only way to even hope to make society confront and solve these issues is a united protest that gets noticed, that ruffles some feathers, that shakes things up. so we definitely disagree regarding protests against racism, but tbf i figured as much when you told me that generally speaking you're ok with notorious human rights violator qatar hosting the world cup. i'd fully support the dfb boycotting it, but that's obviously nothing those spineless cowards would ever do - a few token objections to slave labour, and courses for our players regarding what they can and can't criticise is the best they could manage, lol...
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Jun 24 2022 05:50pm
Quote (fender @ 25 Jun 2022 01:05)
preventing solidarity (class / race / gender...) by artificially prying apart issues that are clearly related, insisting they are fundamentally different, and fear-mongering about the consequences of addressing them, is an old but successful tactic - one that i wholeheartedly reject though. just to be clear, i don't think you're doing it on purpose, but it's clear that you uncritically bought into that narrative which is so popular amongst those that simply don't want to address the issue at all.

that's highly disingenuous and also counter-productive (by design obviously). just because racism takes slightly different forms (we still have racial profiling and discrimination in europe) and is stronger in some areas than in others, doesn't mean it's not an important issue that can't or shouldn't be addressed united.

let me ask you a specific question about a central claim of yours: how exactly does adapting a gesture from the BLM movement make our racism issue worse?! that makes no sense to me. you're telling me that people become racists simply because they see players kneeling or what?

if by worse you simply mean it leads to more controversy regarding the topic, then yes - that's the whole point. i think the reality is that it makes people uncomfortable that we haven't addressed it honestly previously - i've read so many accounts of not just athletes, but also artists, politicians, and regular people talking about how their race affected their everyday lives - the comments and prejudices they have to bear on a daily basis, the scepticism, rejection, and doubts they encountered. personally, i think it's about fucking time we re-thought and tried to eliminate this shit - and sports, arts, and entertainment are great vehicles for it, because that's where our attention goes.

just trying to neatly divide that into sub-divisions of specific forms of racism, have each have their own tiny little voice of respectful protest that doesn't hurt anyone's feelings, won't change anything - which obviously is the desired intention. the only way to even hope to make society confront and solve these issues is a united protest that gets noticed, that ruffles some feathers, that shakes things up. so we definitely disagree regarding protests against racism, but tbf i figured as much when you told me that generally speaking you're ok with notorious human rights violator qatar hosting the world cup. i'd fully support the dfb boycotting it, but that's obviously nothing those spineless cowards would ever do - a few token objections to slave labour, and courses for our players regarding what they can and can't criticise is the best they could manage, lol...


My problem is about where we're looking for inspiration to combat racism. On a movement which promotes racial equality... but also promotes pride and identity? To that, I say NO. I always find it mindboggling how in the US people use labels like asianamerican, africanamerican, etc... I certainly don't want to see people here calling themselves blackspaniards or whatever. People should be american, spanish, german, or whatever, regardless of their ethnicity. We should not promote social divisions with these microidentities, labels and holidays to celebrate a target ethnic group... that creates further divisions and racism.

If the US wants to go that route, then that's their problem, but I will certainly not support importing this mindset or taking example/lessons from think tanks that believe in these ethnic labels. Fortunately, in Europe we have a good social security which helps create opportunities and level the playing field... we should use it to out advante to integrate and assimilate the minorities, while educating the majorities to understand equality regardless of sex, race, etc. People should just be seen as equal citizens, with no positive or negative discrimination.
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Jun 24 2022 06:17pm
Quote (zarkadon @ 25 Jun 2022 01:50)
My problem is about where we're looking for inspiration to combat racism. On a movement which promotes racial equality... but also promotes pride and identity? To that, I say NO. I always find it mindboggling how in the US people use labels like asianamerican, africanamerican, etc... I certainly don't want to see people here calling themselves blackspaniards or whatever. People should be american, spanish, german, or whatever, regardless of their ethnicity. We should not promote social divisions with these microidentities, labels and holidays to celebrate a target ethnic group... that creates further divisions and racism.

If the US wants to go that route, then that's their problem, but I will certainly not support importing this mindset or taking example/lessons from think tanks that believe in these ethnic labels. Fortunately, in Europe we have a good social security which helps create opportunities and level the playing field... we should use it to out advante to integrate and assimilate the minorities, while educating the majorities to understand equality regardless of sex, race, etc. People should just be seen as equal citizens, with no positive or negative discrimination.


i think it's highly disingenuous to suggest that adapting a specific gesture somehow implies pushing for the exact same solutions, no matter the nature of the issue in a given society - that's just looking for a distinction in order to dismiss united protest. again, many of the core issues ARE very much the same, despite the cultural and historical differences you have between continents, countries, and even regions. the protest is about raising awareness and changing society to end discrimination, not about establishing micro-identities or whatever you might want to jump to next, in order to rationalise dividing up the anti-racism movement.

it's one thing to formulate an inoffensive vision about what people "should" be or feel like, but simply refusing to address the aforementioned prejudices and discrimination, which unfortunately still exist and thrive these days - and trying to take the wind out of the sails of a movement aiming to make society aware of it, is counter-productive to say the least. again, i'm not suggesting that's your personal intention, but certainly that of those who came up with and pushed this nonsensical line of argument. (before you ask, i'm pretty sure i read similar things from hungary "no, no, we're of course totally against racism *wink wink*, we have this inoffensive little slogan on the inside of our kits, this is just too divisive, it's not that big of a deal anyway, and it's just some american thing that doesn't affect us anyway - also, isn't fifa against political statements anyway? (while being used as a propaganda tool for orban's fascist regime)")
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