Quote (zarkadon @ Nov 21 2016 04:29pm)

I'm aware that his argentinian team mates are underachieving as well. All of them, Messi included, are stepping down their performances when on national duty... if Messi stands out for them and performs the best in that swarm of lackluster performances, it is only natural as he is the best player in the team. I agree the management isn't outstanding, but the people appointed for the job aren't really no-marks either... even if they aren't well known in Europe, they are generally managers that have achieved success in South America. The FA though... yeah, that's a mess and Grondona really needs to go... although tbf there is always an insane amount of pressure and chaos surrounding the AFA. Back in the 50s they withdrew from 2 WCs basicly out of fear of people rioting if Brazil did better than them. The pressure and chaos has always been there and will probably always be.

"Leading" the team by scoring against teams like Serbia, Iran, Nigeria, Bosnia, Panama, Ecuador, Venezuela, USA and a pk against Paraguay (these are all the teams he has ever scored against in WCs or Copa Américas) isn't really relvant if he isn't there in the semis and finals against more serious opposition.

All of the players considered to be among the GOATs have shined in the decisive games and carried their team in those decisive moments. Even if he doesn't win it (like Cruyff for example), he should be at least shining and giving his all in the decisive moments, not going on invisible mode like he did in the second half of the last WC.

While I do think he's the best of his generation, to be the best ever you need an extra edge. I think he should start by stepping down from being the national captain as that would relive the pressure and also because, let's be honest, even though he's an outstanding player he's an awful captain and it's really not a role that's good for him.

Quote (kbk @ 21 Nov 2016 20:44)

You don't think Leo is the GOAT, main man zark? I thought it was indisputable at this point to be honest
His lack of work rate at this point of his career is concerning though

Quote (kbk @ 22 Nov 2016 04:23)

With that being said, his finals record with Argentina is quite bad. Losing the 2014 WC final (but hey, he made it to a final and had a good, albeit not GOAT tournament) is one thing but losing back to back Copa Americas was a tough one. I thought this Copa America final (2016), was one of his best games. He really did everything he could but could not turn into a victory.

Quote (kbk @ 22 Nov 2016 03:23)

""Leading" the team by scoring against teams like Serbia, Iran, Nigeria, Bosnia, Panama, Ecuador, Venezuela, USA and a pk against Paraguay (these are all the teams he has ever scored against in WCs or Copa Américas) isn't really relvant if he isn't there in the semis and finals against more serious opposition."

While I do agree with the majority of what you said, especially his captaincy or general lack of leadership (he just has a more reserved, calm personality), I don't like this part I quoted zark. You score against the teams in front of you, those goals do help you progress, they help you make it to the semi-finals and finals, putting the team into contention to win.

With that being said, his finals record with Argentina is quite bad. Losing the 2014 WC final (but hey, he made it to a final and had a good, albeit not GOAT tournament) is one thing but losing back to back Copa Americas was a tough one. I thought this Copa America final (2016), was one of his best games. He really did everything he could but could not turn into a victory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JJAZqZhIpU

Quote (B4al @ 22 Nov 2016 09:50)

As opposed to the proffesionalism and work ethic of maradona, who gave everything in training

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xigzEJ8aJ0


I actually stayed up 4 am to watch that. Aguerro and Higuain, otherwise praised by the whole world as at least decent strikers, missed sitters. Chances created by Leon. Id have higuain retire from the argentinian team just for that.

Quote (WNxIrvine @ 22 Nov 2016 12:25)

I'm with zark on this one. Can't be having a steroid using tax evading midget as the best player ever.

Best player ever for barca? Sure.

Best of this generation? Probably.

Best ever? Nah.

Quote (zarkadon @ 22 Nov 2016 12:04)

That was just before a game, not a a regular training session; he was just fooling around to have some fun with the crowd :D

I had seen that video years ago and iirc that was just before EL semis vs Bayern... everyone was nervous but Diego was just calm as always :D

Valdano once said that he remembers how he was almost pissing himself before the WC final, while Maradona was just clowning around the locker room. Then Maradona approached him and calmed him down, and said that he too was nervous, but that he wasn't going to let that stop him from doing what he always does off or on the pitch. Valdano said that calmed him down and motivated him... despite his off the pitch antics, Diego was always a great captain and an absolute boss :D

Quote (B4al @ Nov 22 2016 10:41am)

Watching Jamie Vardy day in day out does that to a guy. :(

Quote (B4al @ 22 Nov 2016 11:48)

Its a warmup.

He also missed training sessions completely and whenever he attended he was always on the ball. Dunno if in any game he had the ball for more than 10 minutes out of a complete 90. One might even argue that means the team carried him for the entire 80, but you could also argue that it matters most what happened when he got the ball, not when he didnt. Imo they are equally important. So if you argue messi is lazy off the ball, Maradona was way worse.

Quote (zarkadon @ Nov 22 2016 05:04am)

Obviously it's important to be decisive in the early stages of the competition, but imo the best also need to be decisive at the end. Argentina, despite their mediocre displays, has so much individual quality that it wouldn't be surprising if they beat the rivals I mentioned without Messi. The great ones need to be there to provide the difference. Messi has done this countless of times with Barça, scoring a hattrick against Madrid in the same way he would against Granada... but outside of the team he feels so comfortable in, he loses his decisiveness and just becomes a good player.

I agree he played well in that second final against Chile (definitely his best game in a big international game), but if you want to compare him to players like Maradona then you need to demand a bit more than that. And of course missing a decisive penalty at the end of the game kind of ruins it, even though it may feel unfair after what he did during the previous 120 minutes...



That was just before a game, not a a regular training session; he was just fooling around to have some fun with the crowd :D

I had seen that video years ago and iirc that was just before EL semis vs Bayern... everyone was nervous but Diego was just calm as always :D

Valdano once said that he remembers how he was almost pissing himself before the WC final, while Maradona was just clowning around the locker room. Then Maradona approached him and calmed him down, and said that he too was nervous, but that he wasn't going to let that stop him from doing what he always does off or on the pitch. Valdano said that calmed him down and motivated him... despite his off the pitch antics, Diego was always a great captain and an absolute boss :D