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Mar 31 2015 12:54am
Quote (Terps @ Mar 30 2015 11:50pm)
Cam,

I think part of the problem is that you are assuming the current system promotes/deters a dishonest person from doing dishonest things. It has no bearing in my opinion. Whether a person abides by the list or not, if that person is dishonest, no set form of rules will deter him from doing dishonest things.

If a dishonest person uses the "cool gl" technicality to do a bm non-bet, then that person does not care about his reputation--he does not care if he is viewed as a welcher on a list or an unofficial welcher by the general betting public. The bm bettor is penny-wise and pound-foolish, since it is likely that, although his gains would be short-lived, the fallout would be general scorn from all other gm bettors who would refuse to bet with the bm bettor and castigate him whenever he tries to bet in the future. This person would never become active, although he would not be officially listed as a welcher. Of course, to a new bettor who is not aware of or who does not follow the "CD" rule, the bm person's presence on the welcher list would be irrelevant, since this person does not follow the unofficial betting guide anyway. The bm bettor would not care about his reputation, which includes being on the welcher list, since he does not value his integrity. To put it simply, there is no deterrent for someone with no morals, and the threat of "punishment" (being put on the welcher list; being viewed as bm) is not a deterrent for this person.



Damn terps dropping knowledge.
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Mar 31 2015 01:05am
Total full blown baked potato with sour cream. There is no way in hell we are changing to some subjective system so save your fingers. I'm sorry you have a hard on for me and can't see what I said 3 years ago was about a bet that gold was sent upfront and the reply was cool to to the guy. You try to take shit out of context just like your stupid suggestion would have people do.
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Mar 31 2015 01:13am
Quote (Terps @ Mar 31 2015 02:50am)
Cam,

I think part of the problem is that you are assuming the current system promotes/deters a dishonest person from doing dishonest things. It has no bearing in my opinion. Whether a person abides by the list or not, if that person is dishonest, no set form of rules will deter him from doing dishonest things.

If a dishonest person uses the "cool gl" technicality to do a bm non-bet, then that person does not care about his reputation--he does not care if he is viewed as a welcher on a list or an unofficial welcher by the general betting public. The bm bettor is penny-wise and pound-foolish, since it is likely that, although his gains would be short-lived, the fallout would be general scorn from all other gm bettors who would refuse to bet with the bm bettor and castigate him whenever he tries to bet in the future. This person would never become active, although he would not be officially listed as a welcher. Of course, to a new bettor who is not aware of or who does not follow the "CD" rule, the bm person's presence on the welcher list would be irrelevant, since this person does not follow the unofficial betting guide anyway. The bm bettor would not care about his reputation, which includes being on the welcher list, since he does not value his integrity. To put it simply, there is no deterrent for someone with no morals, and the threat of "punishment" (being put on the welcher list; being viewed as bm) is not a deterrent for this person.


Its not only about deterring scammers who will be dishonest no matter what, its about making it harder for them to do so effectively, punishing them when they do it, and making the rules more intuitive instead of an incredibly strange system using a specific magic word as the only way it counts.

The "doesnt care about being on the welcher list" is not strictly true at all. In some cases, sure.
In other cases unknowns, Regulars and trusted/mediators repeatedly used counter-intuitive loopholes to troll and scam people.
These are regulars who know the rule and how to work around it.
Many of these people care deeply about whether they are welcher tagged or not, and if clearly accepting a bet in plain English and refusing to pay up would be punishable with that tag they likely wouldn't do it.

There is also a chance someone calls him out as a welcher when he is trying to make bets with people, although that won't always happen.

Im not ok with what teabaggery did being repeated and deemed acceptable.

The deal about them getting publicly scorned is not strictly true either. This was overtly commonplace in the past, and if its not overt right now it will be brushed off as "its ok. No bet. it wasn't confirmed" like it originally was in this thread before we started debating.


Quote
Total full blown baked potato with sour cream. There is no way in hell we are changing to some subjective system so save your fingers. I'm sorry you have a hard on for me and can't see what I said 3 years ago was about a bet that gold was sent upfront and the reply was cool to to the guy. You try to take shit out of context just like your stupid suggestion would have people do.


I already addressed that earlier and explained how that is not a valid point.
Nor did I say we should change to a purely subjective system, but I would rather allow for other forms of confirmation. Its plainly obvious when this is the case, as it was in numerous examples I brought up.

"cool gl" is a confirmation when its sent upfront and its not when its not sent upfront? How do you manage to spin that one?
Either its a confirmation or its not. Which is it? In both cases its a clear indication of acceptance that the bet is on.

There is also no need for you to get pissy and insult me when I disagree with you.
Dont let that power go to your head.

This post was edited by cambovenzi on Mar 31 2015 01:17am
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Mar 31 2015 01:19am
Quote (cambovenzi @ Mar 31 2015 03:13am)
Its not only about deterring scammers who will be dishonest no matter what, its about making it harder for them to do so effectively and making the rules more intuitive instead of an incredibly strange system using a specific magic word as the only way it counts.

The "doesnt care about being on the welcher list" is not strictly true at all. In some cases, sure.
In other cases unknowns, Regulars and trusted/mediators repeatedly used counter-intuitive loopholes to troll and scam people.
These are regulars who know the rule and how to work around it.
Many of these people care deeply about whether they are welcher tagged or not, and if clearly accepting a bet in plain English and refusing to pay up would be punishable with that tag they likely wouldn't do it.

There is also a chance someone calls him out as a welcher when he is trying to make bets with people, although that won't always happen.

Im not ok with what teabaggery did being repeated and deemed acceptable.

The deal about them getting publicly scorned is not strictly true either. This was overtly commonplace in the past, and if its not overt right now it will be brushed off as "its ok. No bet. it wasn't confirmed" like it originally was in this thread before we started debating..


Who are these active+ people that are doing bm stuff though? I don't think I have seen any of this going on since sheriff became list runner. That was more of a thing during and especially before Pilot.

If an active+ did do something bm like that, I would hope that he has his tag removed. However, I haven't seen it happen. If you do, report it in the nomination thread and maybe something will be done.
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Mar 31 2015 01:23am
Quote (Terps @ Mar 31 2015 03:19am)
Who are these active+ people that are doing bm stuff though? I don't think I have seen any of this going on since sheriff became list runner. That was more of a thing during and especially before Pilot.

If an active+ did do something bm like that, I would hope that he has his tag removed. However, I haven't seen it happen. If you do, report it in the nomination thread and maybe something will be done.


I can credit sheriff with cleaning things up considerably, and I have a much higher opinion of him than my posts here have indicated so far.

It wouldnt have to be as overt as it was in the past for it to still occur without punishment.
It would easily be considered a normal lack of confirmation and no-bet when they lose, and a silent acceptance of FG when they win.
You guys rush to defend someone who didn't say "confirmed" on a bet.

Confirmation shouldn't even be needed by the 2nd party after they declare they accept the bet.. but that would be digging myself a deeper hole.

This post was edited by cambovenzi on Mar 31 2015 01:28am
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Mar 31 2015 01:42am
Anyways, sorry if I rustled some jimmies. I said some less than nice things and got carried away a bit.
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Mar 31 2015 01:57am
I think the problem you are observing is a valid one, it just seems too infrequent to merit changing the entire system from an objective one to a subjective one.

I think a subjective system would bring about more controversy than what we have now. It would require some sort of vote on every little disagreement (and there would be more of them without a strict objective system). The current system merely checks to see if both sides confirmed, which obviates the need for a subjective analysis of each questionable bet.
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Mar 31 2015 02:00am
Quote (cambovenzi @ 30 Mar 2015 02:56)
And I was pointing out that it should be irrelevant whether he was the list ruinner at that time, and what is right shouldn't change simply because he is in power now.


Did you read the thread?

Ill try explaining again.

Person 1: Hey i want this bet on x vs y
Person 2: offers terms of the bet he wants, and says "cool gl"
Person 1: Deal

Its pretty self-evident how that not being considered a bet helps scammers.
They trick people into taking bets that appear perfectly valid in accordance with the English language, that a reasonable person would consider a bet anywhere on the planet.
The (often newer) person fully believes the bet is valid and for good reason.
If the scammer loses the scammer won't have to pay and won't get tagged. If he wins he makes off with the fg.

That's why you ask for rules before you bet... not sure what's the real deal here. And by what logic this protects scammers? I can't see it...
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Mar 31 2015 06:16am
Quote (cambovenzi @ Mar 31 2015 03:13am)
Its not only about deterring scammers who will be dishonest no matter what, its about making it harder for them to do so effectively, punishing them when they do it, and making the rules more intuitive instead of an incredibly strange system using a specific magic word as the only way it counts.

The "doesnt care about being on the welcher list" is not strictly true at all. In some cases, sure.
In other cases unknowns, Regulars and trusted/mediators repeatedly used counter-intuitive loopholes to troll and scam people.
These are regulars who know the rule and how to work around it.
Many of these people care deeply about whether they are welcher tagged or not, and if clearly accepting a bet in plain English and refusing to pay up would be punishable with that tag they likely wouldn't do it.

There is also a chance someone calls him out as a welcher when he is trying to make bets with people, although that won't always happen.

Im not ok with what teabaggery did being repeated and deemed acceptable.

The deal about them getting publicly scorned is not strictly true either. This was overtly commonplace in the past, and if its not overt right now it will be brushed off as "its ok. No bet. it wasn't confirmed" like it originally was in this thread before we started debating.




I already addressed that earlier and explained how that is not a valid point.
Nor did I say we should change to a purely subjective system, but I would rather allow for other forms of confirmation. Its plainly obvious when this is the case, as it was in numerous examples I brought up.

"cool gl" is a confirmation when its sent upfront and its not when its not sent upfront? How do you manage to spin that one?
Either its a confirmation or its not. Which is it? In both cases its a clear indication of acceptance that the bet is on.

There is also no need for you to get pissy and insult me when I disagree with you.
Dont let that power go to your head.


You started the whole pissing contest when you insulted me several times in here, cd your bets its pretty fucking simple, if you don't its not a bet. The main problem with your concept is that it opens way more doors than it closes and is not a viable option. I said to come up with something that will work not drone on about the same shit that doesn't. I personally feel that intent to bet should be enough, but there are so many trolls and retards on this website you cant use common sense to determine intent. By using the CD term there is no doubt you wanted the bet. It's so easy a caveman can do it.
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Mar 31 2015 10:57am
Quote (SheriffCool @ 31 Mar 2015 14:16)
You started the whole pissing contest when you insulted me several times in here, cd your bets its pretty fucking simple, if you don't its not a bet. The main problem with your concept is that it opens way more doors than it closes and is not a viable option. I said to come up with something that will work not drone on about the same shit that doesn't. I personally feel that intent to bet should be enough, but there are so many trolls and retards on this website you cant use common sense to determine intent. By using the CD term there is no doubt you wanted the bet. It's so easy a caveman can do it.



100% with it.
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