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Dec 2 2010 11:16pm
Quote (Eep @ Dec 3 2010 12:55am)
I wouldn't mind seeing a logia in the crew.


They are in the new world, after all....things like that are less godlike than they were in the grandline.

More people will show up with powerful fruits, or haki, or various other knowledge.


I actually agree with five33. Not having a logia type kind of makes them more unique in the new world. Sort of an against all odds, rag tag team of winners. An "upset" so to speak.

Besides. Consuming a logia fruit is pretty much cheating your way to the top, in my humble opinion.

---

I however disagree with five33 and think that ace's fruit happened to match him perfectly. Destructive & untamed.
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Dec 3 2010 12:15am
Quote (Black487 @ Dec 3 2010 12:16am)
I actually agree with five33.  Not having a logia type kind of makes them more unique in the new world.  Sort of an against all odds, rag tag team of winners.  An "upset" so to speak. 

Besides.  Consuming a logia fruit is pretty much cheating your way to the top, in my humble opinion. 

---

I however disagree with five33 and think that ace's fruit happened to match him perfectly.  Destructive & untamed.


crocodile was never at the top, he was only mildly powerful in early stages of the grandline, and even then he managed to get trumped by some unknown pirate made of rubber



then he got sent to prison, where he was again a non factor...until he was let out. Even at the big battle of marine hq, he couldn't do anything substantial afaik.
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Dec 3 2010 03:15am
Quote (Eep @ 3 Dec 2010 07:15)
crocodile was never at the top, he was only mildly powerful in early stages of the grandline, and even then he managed to get trumped by some unknown pirate made of rubber

then he got sent to prison, where he was again a non factor...until he was let out. Even at the big battle of marine hq, he couldn't do anything substantial afaik.


crocodile would be gfg if he knows how to use his power properly.
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Dec 3 2010 05:34am
Quote (Eep @ Dec 3 2010 02:15am)
crocodile was never at the top, he was only mildly powerful in early stages of the grandline, and even then he managed to get trumped by some unknown pirate made of rubber



then he got sent to prison, where he was again a non factor...until he was let out. Even at the big battle of marine hq, he couldn't do anything substantial afaik.


I think you're shockingly wrong here. He was strong enough to be a shichibukai. He's strong enough to have donflamingo as his personal fanboy. We also know that donflamingo kills moria (another warlord) because of how weak he is. Yet donflamingo keeps offering partnerships to crocodile, which means among even the shichibukai crocodile wasn't even part of the bottom tier.

We also both know that the "unknown pirate made of rubber" is going to be the next pirate king. The opponents Luffy's defeated so far have been unbelievable. Also, we just agreed that more so than logia or haki, ambition and willpower are the greatest strengths in the show. We know Luffy is rich in both.

Despite this, Crocodile defeated Luffy twice before finally losing. Both victories left Luffy on the brink of death and the only reason Luffy survived was because Crocodile had a tendency to have his enemies suffer slow, painful deaths (Ex: leaving the gutted luffy in the quick sand [See Fig. 1.1], and walking away from the withered / dehydrated luffy [See fig 1.2]). This enabled Luffy time & opportunity to survive to fight again.

Crocodile also went to the most renowned and feared prison on the entire planet (level 6 no less) -- and wasn't even phased by it. Oda actually put a smile on Crocodiles face as he was sent to Impel Down. Crocodile never flinched or even changed his stoic facial expression during tortures that usually drove other inmates mad. I might add that all of these tortures took place with seastone handcuffs on -- meaning he physically endured everything without the aid of his logia abilities. Crocodile was also unaffected by Boa Hancock's beauty when she visited level 6, which says something about Crocodiles resolve and willpower.

It was also stated that crocodile was among many of the renowned "silver medalists" for Gol D. Roger's position in the New World, which is a rather big claim.

Fig 1.1


Fig 1.2



Bottom line / tl;dr

Crocodile is a complete and utter hoss.




Quote (undead_lord @ Dec 3 2010 05:15am)
crocodile would be gfg if he knows how to use his power properly.


He does, are you kidding me?

This post was edited by Black487 on Dec 3 2010 05:55am
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Dec 3 2010 02:00pm
Quote (Black487 @ Dec 3 2010 06:34am)
I think you're shockingly wrong here.  He was strong enough to be a shichibukai.  He's strong enough to have donflamingo as his personal fanboy.  We also know that donflamingo kills moria (another warlord) because of how weak he is.  Yet donflamingo keeps offering partnerships to crocodile, which means among even the shichibukai crocodile wasn't even part of the bottom tier. 

We also both know that the "unknown pirate made of rubber" is going to be the next pirate king.  The opponents Luffy's defeated so far have been unbelievable.  Also, we just agreed that more so than logia or haki, ambition and willpower are the greatest strengths in the show.  We know Luffy is rich in both. 

Despite this, Crocodile defeated Luffy twice before finally losing.  Both victories left Luffy on the brink of death and the only reason Luffy survived was because Crocodile had a tendency to have his enemies suffer slow, painful deaths (Ex: leaving the gutted luffy in the quick sand [See Fig. 1.1], and walking away from the withered / dehydrated luffy [See fig 1.2]).  This enabled Luffy time & opportunity to survive to fight again. 

Crocodile also went to the most renowned and feared prison on the entire planet (level 6 no less) -- and wasn't even phased by it.  Oda actually put a smile on Crocodiles face as he was sent to Impel Down.  Crocodile never flinched or even changed his stoic facial expression during tortures that usually drove other inmates mad.  I might add that all of these tortures took place with seastone handcuffs on -- meaning he physically endured everything without the aid of his logia abilities.  Crocodile was also unaffected by Boa Hancock's beauty when she visited level 6, which says something about Crocodiles resolve and willpower. 

It was also stated that crocodile was among many of the renowned "silver medalists" for Gol D. Roger's position in the New World, which is a rather big claim. 

Fig 1.1
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Black487/LuffydefeatedbyCroc.png

Fig 1.2
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090916183959/onepiece/images/thumb/3/32/LuffydefeatedbyCroc2.PNG/398px-LuffydefeatedbyCroc2.PNG


Bottom line / tl;dr 

Crocodile is a complete and utter hoss.






He does, are you kidding me?


whhhaaat??


For 1, shichibkuais are picked for notoriety and power. Crocodile had a logia, and was good at getting things done. That doesn't make him anything special.


We don't really know the circumstances under which croc became a warlord.


For 2, don flamingo offers partnerships to croc

A: because he is a logia and won't be offed easily

B: because he isn't batshit insane like moria

and C: because he wants to control croc, because he knows he(flamingo) is stronger. If you paid attn while reading, you know notice that croc realized this right away and turned down the offer.

Remember bellamy? Don flamingo is more than just a devils fruit control ability wielder, he holds great control and influence in the grand line and new world. Who wouldn't want to add logias to their empire?


Croc had a bounty of 79 mil before becoming a warlord. Moria was somewhere like 200 or 300 mil.


We also both *KNOW* that the end of one piece isn't here yet. So don't make assumptions. And luffy has gotten through his battles with unrelenting willpower.


Croc only beat him the first 2 times because luffy was still green. He didn't know about logias, he didn't care about them. When luffy saw croc, all he saw was another asshole. He just needed a way to beat him. And after some trial and error, he figured it out.

As for the impel down shit, big deal. Did you see the expression on crocs face when luffy used storm on him? So much for that willpower, huh? Croc can't picture himself losing, so what he has is a huge EGO. Not to be confused with willpower.


Croc is just another villain whos ambitions are less than known and prefers to have people working for him, rather than working under someone. The warlord position was merely a ticket to get himself into alabasta without being hassled by marines.


He is not hoss, and if he shows up again (I STRESS THE IF, no one expected to see many of the people @ impel down again, so now they have had their big hurrah) you can bet he won't even be worthy of standing in luffys shadow. Luffy has gotten more powerful because his goal has always remained the same, but his personality has also remained the same.


TLDR: Croc ain't shit, just a big ego logia user with pathetic ambitions.

This post was edited by Eep on Dec 3 2010 02:06pm
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Dec 3 2010 09:22pm
Quote (Eep @ Dec 3 2010 04:00pm)
whhhaaat??


For 1, shichibkuais are picked for notoriety and power. Crocodile had a logia, and was good at getting things done. That doesn't make him anything special.


We don't really know the circumstances under which croc became a warlord.


For 2, don flamingo offers partnerships to croc

A: because he is a logia and won't be offed easily

B: because he isn't batshit insane like moria

and C: because he wants to control croc, because he knows he(flamingo) is stronger. If you paid attn while reading, you know notice that croc realized this right away and turned down the offer.

Remember bellamy? Don flamingo is more than just a devils fruit control ability wielder, he holds great control and influence in the grand line and new world. Who wouldn't want to add logias to their empire?


Croc had a bounty of 79 mil before becoming a warlord. Moria was somewhere like 200 or 300 mil.


We also both *KNOW* that the end of one piece isn't here yet. So don't make assumptions. And luffy has gotten through his battles with unrelenting willpower.


Croc only beat him the first 2 times because luffy was still green. He didn't know about logias, he didn't care about them. When luffy saw croc, all he saw was another asshole. He just needed a way to beat him. And after some trial and error, he figured it out.

As for the impel down shit, big deal. Did you see the expression on crocs face when luffy used storm on him? So much for that willpower, huh? Croc can't picture himself losing, so what he has is a huge EGO. Not to be confused with willpower.


Croc is just another villain whos ambitions are less than known and prefers to have people working for him, rather than working under someone. The warlord position was merely a ticket to get himself into alabasta without being hassled by marines.


He is not hoss, and if he shows up again (I STRESS THE IF, no one expected to see many of the people @ impel down again, so now they have had their big hurrah) you can bet he won't even be worthy of standing in luffys shadow. Luffy has gotten more powerful because his goal has always remained the same, but his personality has also remained the same.


TLDR: Croc ain't shit, just a big ego logia user with pathetic ambitions.


To avoid this becoming a battle of huge paragraphs I'm going to try to condense my argument into smaller, direct points.
  • We already established that Luffy > Crocodile. The point is few if any opponents besides Luffy, Whitebeard, and Roger have defeated Crocodile, hence his noteriety as a shichibukai. Also, almost nothing aside from those three have been able to rattle Crocodile, even Impel Down which is otherwise greatly feared among the pirate world never even rattled him. Stating that Crocodile expressed pain via Luffy's storm is pretty much citing one of the exceptionally few instances we've seen where crocodile has lost.
  • Donflamingo did not have a partnership with Bellamy. Bellamy was a mere grunt. Moria was killed because he was considered too weak, not because of his demeanor as kind of nutty. Please cite support for where you found option C.
  • Bounty's mean nothing. Blackbeard literally doesn't even have a bounty yet he's considered the main antagonist of the show. Just as in blackbeards case, if Crocodiles strength is established early on and is given shichibukai status his bounty would not have been given sufficient time to climb.
  • Luffy was familiar with logia style during his second battle with crocodile. Hence becoming "Water Luffy". He still lost.
  • Again, we already understand that Luffy > Crocodile so this is a point we agree on.

My argument isn't that Crocodile is a God. But he is still quite a renowned, powerful and influential fighter. A majority of his power comes from his logia ability but his physical endurance and resilience to pain make him otherwise impressive too. He's also an extremely competent / intelligent opponent. The biggest weakness in his plans I would argue would be his pride/ego which is something we probably agree on.

Crocodile and Mr. 1 agreed to enter the New World around the same time as Luffy. You can probably take it to the bank that we'll see him again. We can further rate his fighting prowess there.
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Dec 3 2010 10:00pm
hohoho . that franky realised about Cariboo logia fruit hahaha xD
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Dec 3 2010 10:26pm
Oh I forgot about one last way to deal with logia users. Anyone think someone in the Straw Hat crew will utilize sea stone now? Probably be Zoro or Franky if they did.

This post was edited by i_r_slayer on Dec 3 2010 10:27pm
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Dec 3 2010 11:18pm
Quote (i_r_slayer @ Dec 4 2010 12:26am)
Oh I forgot about one last way to deal with logia users. Anyone think someone in the Straw Hat crew will utilize sea stone now? Probably be Zoro or Franky if they did.


You mean usopp & frankie? They're the two tech heads. If anyone will utilize some kind of gadget or what to substitute for strength it will be those two.

Zoro's not clever enough to use seastone, he'd rather just cut his opponents.

It would save them a lot of trouble and it's a good idea, but I don't think they'd ever plan ahead to use seastone.
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Dec 3 2010 11:21pm
Quote (Eep @ Dec 3 2010 03:00pm)
whhhaaat??


For 1, shichibkuais are picked for notoriety and power. Crocodile had a logia, and was good at getting things done. That doesn't make him anything special.


We don't really know the circumstances under which croc became a warlord.


For 2, don flamingo offers partnerships to croc

A: because he is a logia and won't be offed easily

B: because he isn't batshit insane like moria

and C: because he wants to control croc, because he knows he(flamingo) is stronger. If you paid attn while reading, you know notice that croc realized this right away and turned down the offer.

Remember bellamy? Don flamingo is more than just a devils fruit control ability wielder, he holds great control and influence in the grand line and new world. Who wouldn't want to add logias to their empire?


Croc had a bounty of 79 mil before becoming a warlord. Moria was somewhere like 200 or 300 mil.


We also both *KNOW* that the end of one piece isn't here yet. So don't make assumptions. And luffy has gotten through his battles with unrelenting willpower.


Croc only beat him the first 2 times because luffy was still green. He didn't know about logias, he didn't care about them. When luffy saw croc, all he saw was another asshole. He just needed a way to beat him. And after some trial and error, he figured it out.

As for the impel down shit, big deal. Did you see the expression on crocs face when luffy used storm on him? So much for that willpower, huh? Croc can't picture himself losing, so what he has is a huge EGO. Not to be confused with willpower.


Croc is just another villain whos ambitions are less than known and prefers to have people working for him, rather than working under someone. The warlord position was merely a ticket to get himself into alabasta without being hassled by marines.


He is not hoss, and if he shows up again (I STRESS THE IF, no one expected to see many of the people @ impel down again, so now they have had their big hurrah) you can bet he won't even be worthy of standing in luffys shadow. Luffy has gotten more powerful because his goal has always remained the same, but his personality has also remained the same.


TLDR: Croc ain't shit, just a big ego logia user with pathetic ambitions.


he doesnt have a logio lol, logio = haki can only kill while he goes down w/ water
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