lol bro your obviously an extremely intelligent person, you are wasted on jsp. I find it interesting and i wasnt trolling. I only read the book recently on holiday in Cuba, 2nd book of my life, but i found it intersting enough. But i dont know truth etc from fact or fiction.

You are clever enough to know not to take jsp seriously i hope.

This is a load of sh*t, delusional ramblings from someone who's clearly paranoid. Music videos are depicting signs of the occult and it is a shock you say? Utter nonsense, we forget popular music from the 80's was often hyped as the devils music with the intention of being rebellious, and using that to sell records. Artists back then intentionally used images and symbols to show affiliation with satanic rituals and beliefs because it was counter culture. look at Ozzy... Prince of fucking darkness..

Not every triangle is the "All seeing eye" or apart of some conspiracy..

The video is a weak attempt to show the lifestyle they choose, one of freedom, promiscuity, passion, and inhibition opposing the restraints of any doctrine. It's not even an anti-religious statement.. It's that their freedom is associated with evil by dogmatic presuppositions, in american society. What they are surrounded by is judgement forwarded and propagated by the religious majority, which is apart of everyday american life. What they find Free - you Find Evil. Simply put.

For fucks sake... Kesha outsmarted JSP...

This post was edited by TrouNce on Dec 11 2012 08:10pm

You even censored yourself, but only once. How cute.

Let me elucidate some things for you:

Firstly, I never laid a judgement on this in terms of good or evil. Makes you look like a total fool when you quote something that you clearly didn't read. Let's take a look at what I said shortly after what you bolded: "...has been depicting a lot of occult symbolism for a bit now. It's usually pretty subtle but there's some classic things that are often used. The all seeing eye is one. That's easily spotted in the first 10 seconds of the song, she puts her ring over one of her eyes, Jay Z does this all the time, in fact it's his logo. Now I'm not gonna go out and say that they are involved in some deep conspiracies or some shit like that, who really knows (and I would highly doubt it) but I will say that this occult symbolism and imagery has picked up a lot of traction lately, primarily because of the abundance of this sort of info on the internet."

Don't you feel like a jackass now? I am simply stating a trend that is occuring, the only judgement here is that I feel it is highly doubtful that they are involved in a conspiracy. You really need to read before you spam your ignorant flames all over the internet. It's just rude and offensive and confirms your lack of thought and foresight. Also, no, not every triangle is a reference to the all seeing eye, but guess what? A triangle with an eye in the middle is CLEARLY a reference to the all seeing eye... Who here is even denying that? If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it's a fucking duck. How much more obvious would it have to be for you? Secondly, whether these symbols have the same meaning to you or not is completely irrelevant. You don't know what they were intended to mean (clearly) in the context of this song and neither do I but we can extrapolate some possibilities based on our understanding (in your case, you have none) and make an educated guess as to whether it was intentional or not. I think most people in this thread have already agreed it seems quite intentional, you're the odd one out so I'd like to hear your response. I think Billboard agrees with the rest of us:

http://www.billboard.com/news/ke-ha-shouts-out-illuminati-in-die-young-1008008412.story?utm_source=most_recent#/news/ke-ha-shouts-out-illuminati-in-die-young-1008008412.story?utm_source=most_recent

For those who don't know, Billboard runs the music charts, top 40 etc. I am sure you all know them, they are a huge "authority" (for lack of a better word) in terms of popular music and it's trends.

Back to what you said (bolded) about selling records. I also said this... 3 pages back now. "It's my personal feeling that these artists do it because they like the mysterious nature of it all, it's has some intrigue and like stated above... it sells." But your analogy to Ozzy is a shitty analogy at best because Ozzy was playing to a crowd that wanted to see that stuff. All the people I know who enjoy Ke$ha's music are mostly girls who like to go out drinking and I'm sure some of the fans are "darker" but are they the biggest market here? Ke$ha is HARDLY counter culture, give me a fucking break. Do you think her fans practice satanic rituals at night in the woods? Am I missing something here? Is Ke$ha's fanbase really a bunch of goths and she's a counter culture icon?

I would argue that it appears to be a direct shout out to those of us who have taken an interest in esoteric politics and spiritual practices in an attempt to lure us to generate more gossip about this music (even if it's negative) because clearly more people are waking up to this information, thanks to the internet (as I stated already on the first page...). It's clearly working. This field of study is also abundant with misinformation (and disinformation) so playing to extreme emotions based on these symbols is quite easy to those who are easily misinformed. On top of that, it plays to the same values that society has been embracing musically lately: sex, drugs, live fast, die young and most importantly, the value of that of an entrepreneur rising above everyone else (this is a massive theme in modern day rap music). You think "trap" music got big because people hated hearing about people selling crack? Clearly the majority is not opposed to it, that's our values at work. The same way we love war, the same way you can't say "fuck" on TV but you can show somebody dying. These just so happen to be our values and these pop artists are playing off of them... it's kind of what they do... It's the same way Jay Z has blatantly embraced esoteric symbolism in an attempt to put himself into the image of being the "Illuminati" to make himself the ruler of the world, in a sense, even though it's only the image of ruling the world. He talks about this type of stuff in some of his lyrics, you think I'm making this up? It's marketing. And these people are OBVIOUSLY good at marketing, they're fucking pop stars. As quoted from the Billboard article above, "With tons of blatant Illuminati imagery and some sort of illegal orgy going on, the clip (released on Thursday, Nov. 8) takes the singer's button-pushing ability to dizzying new heights."

If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. You missed the entire joke, it flew over your head. At least most of these people got it, there's a thread about it.

For fucks sake, everyone in this thread outsmarted you. Read a fucking book.

My first statement was meant to debunk the idea that counter culture or: occult, satanic imagery is a trend. This goes beyond trend, because as long as imagery was involved with music the allure of counter culture has always been a selling point. It was also to tell you how tremendously delusional the subtext in your post was, you may have avoided claiming conspiracy, but even the mention of one proves how far off topic your ideas are. It seems like you're desperately trying to inject some type of deeper meaning than is actually present, invoking ideas with no direction or point. It's pointless to say this but Kesha hardly understands her agenda, I assume this because most of her work lacks substance. The Occult may be themed in this video, but it's certainly not "hidden" or subtle intelligent or meaningful, and honestly makes no sense. The effort you've taken in discussing this pointless exercise has made it painfully obvious you've placed far to much meaning in it.

I decided to post in this thread because of OP's comments.. "When the hell did the whole anti-Christianity / Satanic pose become mainstream??" and I stand by the original point made, They are saying "We are doing things considered immoral" It's not anti christian.. Industry isn't going in that direction either.

Jay-Z adopted the freemason symbol because he's "mastered" his craft, freemasons were all tradesman who only passed their skills to other members, and he may have only used it once or twice on clothing. Also, he has referred to the hand symbol as a diamond, it's not the all seeing eye.

Kesha has marketed herself as the anti-popstar. Why I know this is beyond me... Something to do with her suggestive/sometimes direct to the point theme, she is apparently bold in her direction.. At least from what I gather. Which is much like any artist from the old days, depending on what they could get away with. Madonna, Ozzy, Manson you name your generic counter culture pop stars.

Don't worry, I read plenty.. I just read a short story by you, a wonderful tale written by some internet kid with elevated opinions pointlessly spouting nonsense and still achieving nothing

This post was edited by TrouNce on Dec 11 2012 10:56pm

I shouldn't have, but I fed you. Now you can go home. Stop looking for an argument.

I was about to leave for a party yesterday but I did read it.
Now i'm too hungover and dont feel like typing

Interesting observations. The all seeing eye has been everywhere lately, I've noticed this too. I have no idea why. It's certainly something worth noting and it's really weird that it's in shitty pop music of all places, considering it's tied in mostly to the occult and alchemy. I find it unlikely that they would use it just to be edgy or rebellious or something, because most of the time people have no idea what the all seeing eye actually is. The fact that serious money is being spent to apply it to videos and such is just so odd, since it seems it doesn't really do much for them, unless they are quite literally trying to make it appear that there is in fact some conspiracy and to capitalize on that itself. But seeing as how most people don't notice, I don't get how it would make them any money at all. Weird.

Yes there is clearly a lot of money being poured into this and I think that's an important observation to understand. You have a good point about most people not being aware about the symbolism and I agree, it seems like the wrong crowd to market these ideas to. There's clearly an agenda here, what it is, I cannot say. I do, however, share your feeling that it is very odd and out of place.

I posted all that I did in an effort to illustrate to people where some of this symbolism comes from and some ways that it has been traditionally understood and viewed. That doesn't mean that it is definitely used in the same manner. A symbol is simply a visual element, you can attach whatever meaning you want to it, (in fact this is the job of a graphic designer) but I hope to have illustrated that there is a deeply esoteric past associated with these symbols and to think of them as being used in some flagrantly offhanded way just seems juvenile. These ideas were never really meant to be understood by the masses, that is sort a big thing in occultism and mystery teachings. In fact alchemy is often considered a precursor to modern science, and clearly even in this era of the world, only the most well off get to be educated in the school of science. The fact that the internet has made accessible all forms of information to nearly anybody (with access to it) has changed the whole game. Now the masses can learn things they were never "supposed" to learn. Even find out about books we would have never known about, and other ways of tunneling into the past and bringing back real evidence. The internet isn't all just modern information or people's opinions or tweets or whatever, there is some really valuable information if you know how to find it. We have to realize that just 100 years ago we didn't even have computers and we barely had cars. 200 years ago we didn't even have light in the same we imagine it to be in our lives now. We're coming to terms with a lot of stuff right now as a culture. It will take time to integrate ideas that were once not a part of the cultural zeitgeist but that shouldn't take away from their validity as real questions or answers to real issues.

The only way to move forward is to embrace new thoughts and ideas and apply them to your cultural model. For those of us who are starting to understand the way our lives are influenced by language and imagery, we can begin to free ourselves from the rigid model that culture has defined as acceptable for us and start to define our own pathes. In this case, language and imagery (mixed with sound) are being used blatantly to manipulate the thoughts and actions of those who view it. Even if it's as simple as thinking about and conversing in a thread like this about it. But as far as this thread, I am talking about the best case scenario because I have no real knowledge of the true agenda here, I can only assume. This could be a far more devious agenda if somebody decided to use these tools (symbols) in that way but jumping to conclusions could certainly lead me to the wrong conclusions, especially if I am emotional about it. But the fear of a worst case scenario is healthy and understandable, especially in a situation where distrust has been a common theme. I am open to whatever truths the world decides to throw at us. Sometimes they are truths we don't want to know and sometimes they are truths that can be viewed from many different vantage points. The truth isn't always clear and reasonable, I think that should be quite obvious by now at this point in history.

It is up to the artist to choose what message they want to put forth into the world, but it is also the responsibility of the listener to do something with that idea. Either to reject it or accept it and if it is accepted, then it must also be interpreted and applied to the model of one's own personal life. To quote one of my favorite people ever: "You have to take seriously the notion that understanding the universe is your responsibility, because the only understanding of the universe that will be useful to you is your own understanding." - Terence Mckenna

You can choose to understand it how you will, but you must also be aware that just because you understand something one way doesn't mean that somebody else doesn't have a differing understanding. In a worst case scenario, there could be manipulation of those who fail to understand ideas by those who create and promulgate these ideas because they have baited and used the former party to their own advantages. This is a common theme in capitalism. In fact, we have a name for it. It's called "marketing." And if you think marketing isn't based on deceit and lies, you need to watch 2 minutes of television, you will be amazed at the shit that is said.

Anyway, not all of this is directed at you, just more of a general spouting of ideas. A tl;dr as it seems to have become better known on here... You got my brain working again, and we all know where that takes us...

"Folks: It's time to evolve ideas. You know, evolution didn't end with us growing thumbs. You do know that, right? Didn't end there. We're at the point, now, where we're going to have to evolve ideas. The reason the world is so fucked up is we're undergoing evolution. And the reason our institutions, our traditional religions, are all crumbling, is because they're no longer relevant. They're no longer relevant. So it's time for us to create a new philosophy and perhaps even a new religion, you see. And that's okay because that's our right, because we are free children of God with minds who can imagine anything, and that's kind of our role." - Bill Hicks

Good to see you here man.

I'm gay.

all seeing eye has been very mainstream populism for quite many years