So our dear friend jack said we only blame d4, to confront that let us discuss wider topic - end game for different arpgs.

It is interesting to hear what exists in other games - for example POE or Undecember or even Lost Ark.
I personally never played POE and would like to hear how end game is designed there.

So current end game in d4 is basically this (not talking pvp here), for future comparison:

1. NM dungeons + AOZ. It is d3 grift scheme - you complete the dungeon, and level up glyph (it is evolution of legendary gem leveling). For some weird reason it will give you damage most of the time, as far as I remember d3 gems had some wider variativity.

2. Helltide - event in the open world. Kill monsters there and collect one special type of consumable item to exchange it for random items.

3. Uber Duriel farming - last but not least, suprisingly is the main end game activity nowadays, because
for some weird reason uber Duriel is the ONLY moster (boss) in entire game for realistic drop chances for uber uniques (approx 2%).
Not even AOZ or T100 NM dungeons or other bosses or even uber Lilith have that high drop chances for them.

So, I'm looking forward for some posts about other games and mostly POE here!

Lost Ark:

- Lots of timegated content relevant for end game (isles, special bosses, chaos gates etc.)
- Chaos dungeons and guardian raids (also time gated - 1 per day)
- A lot of horizontal content (like rapport, adventurer tome etc.)
- Main end content is the raid endgame which is also timegated and offers normal and hardmode difficulty. Normal raids often have nasty wipe mechanics, which means one player can wipe the whole group, so the boss mechanics have to be learned by everybody
- Very Alt-friendly, it is recommended to create multiple characters which different classes. All the achiviements or power systems (like runes, roster-level, cards) are synchronized with the exception of the gear (which is self explanatory).

Lost Ark is not a perfect game, but they did a lot of things right. Imo one of the best ARPG MMOs out there. There are multiple mechanics (Super mokoko pass) to help new players catching up, but it's tough to do endgame raiding because of the gatekeeping (even normal raids are challenging).

D4 is just a very mediocre game, that was designed to offer an acceptable single player campaign. The world in D4 (although it is an openworld game) feels tiny and empty when you enter endgame. Even D2 felt bigger and had more variance. The Item system in D4 is in my opinion the worst I have ever encountered in any ARPG, it's so boring and tedious. The skill tree has to be one of the most stupid ideas I have seen in 20 years. Leveling skills and traits, you don't won't to level, yeah what a great motivation. Even the wow skill tree is better designed (by far). Diablo Immortal skills are way better than this. Even in D3 they got it right. D4 is the product of arrogant wannabe game designers, any honest developer would have not released this.

This post was edited by Valmar667 on Dec 17 2023 11:45am

Daaaaamn

PoE has an extremely customizable endgame experience that goes beyond the normal "do this map or kill this boss".

The atlas passive skill tree offers a much deeper endgame loop experience that you can also change any time you want in order to experience vastly different mapping experiences and loot types.

There are also other game modes like Delve, which offer a "endless ever scailing" game mode you go deeper and deeper as far as your build can go, and there are multiple thematic bosses in there also.

Here is a small and basic list of some of the more notable endgame bosses:

SHAPER & GUARDIANS
Guardian of the Chimera

Guardian of the Hydra

Guardian of the Minotaur

Guardian of the Phoenix

The Shaper

ELDER & GUARDIANS
The Constrictor

The Enslaver

The Eradicator

The Purifier

The Elder

UBER ELDER
The Uber Elder

SIRUS & CONQUERORS
Al-Hezmin, the Hunter

Baran, the Crusader

Drox, the Warlord

Veritania, the Redeemer

Sirus, Awakener of Worlds


ELDRITCH HORRORS
The Black Star

The Searing Exarch

The Infinite Hunger

The Eater of Worlds


THE MAVEN
The Maven


APEX OF SACRIFICE
Atziri, Queen of the Vaal


SYNTHESISED MAP
Cortex


SYNDICATE MASTERMIND
Catarina, Master of Undeath


BREACH
Esh, Forked Thought

Tul, Creeping Avalanche

Xoph, Dark Embers

Uul-Netol, Unburdened Flesh

Chayula, Who Dreamt


These also often offer an "UBER" version of each major theme boss and is a special version of the encounter with special/unique loot tables and different fight mechanics.


Some other notable "boss" content that are generally tied to specific "atlas league mechanic choices" :

Abyssal Liches
Bestiary Spirit Bosses
Beyond Bosses
Delve Bosses
Non-Cortex Synthesis Bosses
The Vaal Omnitech in the Alva Temple


Additional optional endgame content with special rewards:

Heist Boss
Timeless Domain
Ultimatum boss
Affliction league boss
Simulacrum / Delirium bosses



There's def more but its too much to just write about of the top of my head.

As far as I know (not sure 100% ofc) abilities for same boss in PoE can vary in end game?

Last epoch: I'm not an expert, but even a quick play through and I already see:
Monolith system allows you to push difficulty to increase rewards.
Monoliths can be repeated to get better boons or better rolls on them.
Choice of path let's you target farm particular gear slots or material types.
Choose between advancing difficulty vs clearing fast, targeting nodes or farming bosses for dedicated drops.
Crafting has nearly unlimited potential to create BiS gear.

Lol why is my name here attributed to something I've never said.

I have never said you only blame d4? I'm also unsure what you even mean by that.

Maybe time to take some time off d4 discussion and learn English

This post was edited by jackherer on Dec 19 2023 11:52am

Nice to see you are always up for some dramma! I think there were a lot of related posts from you, even this one can be taken as en example.

Seriously the translator youre using isn't doing a good job.

What are you trying to say?

Oh, I think it is the best d4 overview I have seen so far.

About Lost Ark, I saw several boss fights there, they are close to perfect indeed.