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Mar 31 2023 01:48am
Quote (kayko @ Apr 16 2022 06:46am)
So, I never had any hopes for D4 after it was first announced and the first gameplay was made public. I didn’t even really follow the updates much, that’s how disinterested I was. Fast forward 2 years and some new gameplay videos have been released. Watching them assured me that this will just be a D3 with darker color palette. Maybe they’ll implement some other minor improvements and the game could be called “D3.5”, or a “better D3” but that’s all.

A good Sci-Fi movie needs to have a set of coherent, logical and interesting laws of physics that describe the world where the action takes place. These can be different, or slightly different from the real world but they need to make sense to the viewer and be intriguing.

D1 and D2 were focused on creating a world that makes sense to us, humans. If you get hit you may need some time to recover (hit recovery). If you block it takes some time. If you swing a sword you swing a sword and hit or miss a monster. If you get surrounded by the mob you are stuck and you’ll likely die. And monsters have their hit recoveries, blocks and chance of missing you when they attack. So far this is representing the physics of the world we know, within the limitations of a game engine of course.

After the world that makes sense is established you can start to spice it up. Try to add things that do not exist but are easy to imagine how they’d work if they did. Fireball is essentially an explosion, lightning is, well lightning, some sort of electric discharge. Poison weakens you over time, whirlwind is a skillful and desperate weapon swing in an arc while running. They are “dialed up to 11”, but they are belivable.

All of these mechanics and skills start to interact with each other and you get builds that are optimized, efficient, good at killing density or at killing bosses or are difficult to kill and so on.

Also, the world in D1 and D2 is more… open. You can choose which areas to farm. They are different and different builds may be used. Farming chaos is different from travincal, which is different from cows, which is different from mephisto, which is different from ubers. The game doesn’t tell you what to do. It’s just there. The world invaded by monsters is there and the game mechanics / skills are there. And it is up to you to choose what builds you want to make and which areas to go to.

D3 has none of the things above. And it seems like D4 follows the path of D3. Instead of focusing on creating a convincing world mechanics the devs started from the end results: mighty barbarians, glass canon sorceress, agile amazons and try to hardcode them into the game in the form of one-click, all encompassing skills and „epic” graphical effects. The whole screen lights up and darkens when sorc casts lightning, barbarians cause minor earthquake that changes colors when swinging a sword into to the ground. All the time some epic music is played in the background and skills have far too impressive sound effects. It doesn’t make sense. It’s like telling me what you want to achieve without actually achieving it. This looks like a guy who wants to impress a girl with how rich he is buy taking loans for expensive cars and rolexes. Somebody trully rich doesn’t need to do this. And doesn’t need to overdo anything. He is who he is and it emanates from within. A well designed game doesn’t need all of these exaggerated effects. You feel as a tough barbarian or glass canon sorc because you are, in the realms of game mechanics, and not because the game tries to convince you with a disco light effects and calls you a „nephalem” every second sentence.

It’s all just an illusion. All of the characters are the same. Sorc is a long(er) range caster and barbarian is just a short(er) range caster. They all have AoE, they all move equally fast, they all are good at clearing density, bosses, uniques and they all play the same. There is no physics in this game. It doesn’t even try to simulate the real world. Characters just glide through the terrain, without any difficulties, monsters cannot really surround you and block your escape path, there is no hit recovery. You just sit there and cast skills and monsters do the same and the end effect is decided by a simple arithmetic calculation. A „gear check”, if you will. The game doesn’t even have any true mechanics. It just has special skills and special effects for everything. You click a button and a red AoE is cast. You click another and a blue one is cast. And even these climbing walls / jumping cliffs abilities they presented in D4 are just a gimmick. There are special places where you can click a button and be transported to somewhere else. That’s all. There is no true wall climbing or cliff jumping, it’s just another special-purpose, boring eye candy. Even the 3D look of these games is an illusion. You have one degree pf freedom: you follow the corridor or a path. It just so happens that it is surrounded by stone pillars or trees. You cannot interact with them, you cannot really block monsters behind them. You can’t even decide the route through the area, because the whole area is just one route and everything around is just a scenery, like in a theatre. And with how smooth the movement is and all of the mobility skills, the real space you are in is a graph of mobs clusters. You effortlessly glide from one pack to another, push the button and they disappear. The whole desert / jungle decorations are just there to distract you from how dull this whole “world” is.

Is D2 a perfect game? No, obviously not. Some builds are too powerful (e.g. hammerdin), some classes are too weak (e.g. druid), there are tons of exceptions to the rules of the game that you need to learn. But… it’s properly designed, interesting game. And because of that many people can forgive these imperfections.

D3, and most likely D4, are empty, flashy, vain animations, that want too fool you into believing that you are playing a real game.


Go get em Kayko!!!
This is wall of text!! But I have a feeling it’s making great point!!! Will spend 5 mins to read :thumbsup:

So far the D4 videos and itemizations are boring!!!! So much to read so much to mix n match. Easier to just increase all damage numbers high as possible

Edit: wow great read!!!! D2R made sense, D4 whole screen fireworks!

This post was edited by jaybomber on Mar 31 2023 01:53am
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Mar 31 2023 01:57am
Quote (jaybomber @ Mar 31 2023 09:48am)
Go get em Kayko!!!
This is wall of text!! But I have a feeling it’s making great point!!! Will spend 5 mins to read :thumbsup:

So far the D4 videos and itemizations are boring!!!! So much to read so much to mix n match. Easier to just increase all damage numbers high as possible

Edit: wow great read!!!! D2R made sense, D4 whole screen fireworks!


:thumbsup:
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Mar 31 2023 03:30am
Quote (kayko @ Apr 16 2022 03:46am)
So, I never had any hopes for D4 after it was first announced and the first gameplay was made public. I didn’t even really follow the updates much, that’s how disinterested I was. Fast forward 2 years and some new gameplay videos have been released. Watching them assured me that this will just be a D3 with darker color palette. Maybe they’ll implement some other minor improvements and the game could be called “D3.5”, or a “better D3” but that’s all.

A good Sci-Fi movie needs to have a set of coherent, logical and interesting laws of physics that describe the world where the action takes place. These can be different, or slightly different from the real world but they need to make sense to the viewer and be intriguing.

D1 and D2 were focused on creating a world that makes sense to us, humans. If you get hit you may need some time to recover (hit recovery). If you block it takes some time. If you swing a sword you swing a sword and hit or miss a monster. If you get surrounded by the mob you are stuck and you’ll likely die. And monsters have their hit recoveries, blocks and chance of missing you when they attack. So far this is representing the physics of the world we know, within the limitations of a game engine of course.

After the world that makes sense is established you can start to spice it up. Try to add things that do not exist but are easy to imagine how they’d work if they did. Fireball is essentially an explosion, lightning is, well lightning, some sort of electric discharge. Poison weakens you over time, whirlwind is a skillful and desperate weapon swing in an arc while running. They are “dialed up to 11”, but they are belivable.

All of these mechanics and skills start to interact with each other and you get builds that are optimized, efficient, good at killing density or at killing bosses or are difficult to kill and so on.

Also, the world in D1 and D2 is more… open. You can choose which areas to farm. They are different and different builds may be used. Farming chaos is different from travincal, which is different from cows, which is different from mephisto, which is different from ubers. The game doesn’t tell you what to do. It’s just there. The world invaded by monsters is there and the game mechanics / skills are there. And it is up to you to choose what builds you want to make and which areas to go to.

D3 has none of the things above. And it seems like D4 follows the path of D3. Instead of focusing on creating a convincing world mechanics the devs started from the end results: mighty barbarians, glass canon sorceress, agile amazons and try to hardcode them into the game in the form of one-click, all encompassing skills and „epic” graphical effects. The whole screen lights up and darkens when sorc casts lightning, barbarians cause minor earthquake that changes colors when swinging a sword into to the ground. All the time some epic music is played in the background and skills have far too impressive sound effects. It doesn’t make sense. It’s like telling me what you want to achieve without actually achieving it. This looks like a guy who wants to impress a girl with how rich he is buy taking loans for expensive cars and rolexes. Somebody trully rich doesn’t need to do this. And doesn’t need to overdo anything. He is who he is and it emanates from within. A well designed game doesn’t need all of these exaggerated effects. You feel as a tough barbarian or glass canon sorc because you are, in the realms of game mechanics, and not because the game tries to convince you with a disco light effects and calls you a „nephalem” every second sentence.

It’s all just an illusion. All of the characters are the same. Sorc is a long(er) range caster and barbarian is just a short(er) range caster. They all have AoE, they all move equally fast, they all are good at clearing density, bosses, uniques and they all play the same. There is no physics in this game. It doesn’t even try to simulate the real world. Characters just glide through the terrain, without any difficulties, monsters cannot really surround you and block your escape path, there is no hit recovery. You just sit there and cast skills and monsters do the same and the end effect is decided by a simple arithmetic calculation. A „gear check”, if you will. The game doesn’t even have any true mechanics. It just has special skills and special effects for everything. You click a button and a red AoE is cast. You click another and a blue one is cast. And even these climbing walls / jumping cliffs abilities they presented in D4 are just a gimmick. There are special places where you can click a button and be transported to somewhere else. That’s all. There is no true wall climbing or cliff jumping, it’s just another special-purpose, boring eye candy. Even the 3D look of these games is an illusion. You have one degree pf freedom: you follow the corridor or a path. It just so happens that it is surrounded by stone pillars or trees. You cannot interact with them, you cannot really block monsters behind them. You can’t even decide the route through the area, because the whole area is just one route and everything around is just a scenery, like in a theatre. And with how smooth the movement is and all of the mobility skills, the real space you are in is a graph of mobs clusters. You effortlessly glide from one pack to another, push the button and they disappear. The whole desert / jungle decorations are just there to distract you from how dull this whole “world” is.

Is D2 a perfect game? No, obviously not. Some builds are too powerful (e.g. hammerdin), some classes are too weak (e.g. druid), there are tons of exceptions to the rules of the game that you need to learn. But… it’s properly designed, interesting game. And because of that many people can forgive these imperfections.

D3, and most likely D4, are empty, flashy, vain animations, that want too fool you into believing that you are playing a real game.


This truly is just the tip of the iceberg. Here’s the thing between the old Diablo and the new, David Brevick dreamed about this game for years . It was his brain child. He poured love and careful thought into managing it.
This new team is being led by one goal, and it’s not love. It’s return on investment. They aren’t shooting for good game design. Because good game design requires love and thoughtfulness. Their all just there for a paycheck. Not passion. They all probably have a masters degree in game design. A garbage degree for lazy people. They’ve never sat in front of google docs and jammed out a hundred page game design online that they felt a compulsion to make into a reality.
It’s like every other industry. Some folks have passion, and their usually rare. Honestly we got lucky with Diablo 2. But this game is dead now. RIP.
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Mar 31 2023 03:33am
Quote (Rillo @ Mar 31 2023 11:30am)
This new team is being led by one goal, and it’s not love. It’s return on investment. They aren’t shooting for good game design. Because good game design requires love and thoughtfulness. Their all just there for a paycheck..


True
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Mar 31 2023 03:36am
Quote (Wolnirr @ May 4 2022 05:38pm)
It will because I haven't seen anyone mention this one specific point but:

What makes Diablo and Diablo 2 so addictive is it's formulae with ADDITION as it's main source of math.

What I mean by this is in the first 2 games you can EXACTLY calculate the damage you will do if you have all the numbers

However in Diablo 3 you find a unique piece of armor with +200 more primary stat and all of a sudden you do like 4 million more damage which literally and I can't even stress the word literally - doesn't make any sense.


The fact that they only have a certain few of classes like. There's been 7 the last few games,. It's a risk in games adding new additions like fighters to smash but you HAVE to have them in future games or your game is trash sorry. This last point is morey opinion but the math thing is an objective point as to why diablo 3 is GARBONIA


This is another solid point. But it’s embedded into every piece of the design. D3/4 want to treat the player like he’s in God mode. Who the fuck plays games in God mode? Even cheaters get satisfaction out of at least pissing other players off. But God moving a single player game quickly renders the game boring. SHIT game design.
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Mar 31 2023 03:37am
Quote (zacidol87 @ May 7 2022 08:40pm)
D4 is NOTHING like diablo 3 lmao. slap yourself


Did you play the necro? Did you play the main story? It’s 99% Diablo 3.
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Mar 31 2023 03:39am
Quote (Belarathon @ Jun 14 2022 06:59am)
Average intelligence isn’t declining, it’s just that a higher number of dumbasses have a platform to stand on and yell than ever before. It may seem like people are getting dumber, but actually the dumb ones are just getting louder.


Thank you. For anybody interested in a good game go play 7 days to Die. Coming from a d2 fan, just trust me. And not on console for fucks sake.
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Mar 31 2023 03:43am
Quote (KDACardano @ Jul 18 2022 02:25pm)
Bringing back our youth years may not be within the power of either Blizzard North nor Activision, nor the fake blizzard people you speak of.

Our youth was filled with joy, and some of it was experienced through the Diablo 1 and 2 franchises.

If Blizzard were to ask us, ourselves we do not fully understand the reasons why we liked those games so much at the time.

Our liking of those games might have been a magical thought inspired by action figures/cartoons or perhaps a naive quest for power.

If you were to go back to playing Diablo 1 and 2, you would not enjoy it very much for reasons we fail to understand but, I suspect, are the same reasons why we hate D4.


Wrong. It’s not nostalgia. D2R was amazing. Honestly the reasons why d2 is so good are not rocket science. That game is very simple when you break down it’s formulas. But it hasn’t been studied. New games will come out that understand it better.
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Mar 31 2023 04:38am
I stopped reading when he said D1 and D2 would be more open than D4, I realize this is an old post but damn this didn't age well.
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Mar 31 2023 04:39am
ok
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