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Apr 28 2011 08:28am
i have a 100 life wire
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Apr 28 2011 10:41am
Quote (BustaNut @ Apr 28 2011 08:35am)
Before people decide to request change due to their personal opinion, maybe they should follow the rules that are already in affect?
- Playing overly defensive, Circling around walls/Constantly staying near a bridge/house etc, isn't GM.
I know it's been a long time since I have been in amapk and I'm even still getting back into the flow of it, but this rule has ALWAYS been in effect even back in 1.09 which was the last time I was in any ladder.  This rule back then was grounds for expulsion from the ladder and being told to come back when you learned how to duel.  Now, it would seem, it's not even enforced (along with pretty much every other rule).  On this note, I would like further information on what the consequences are for breaking this rule (if there are any..). 

- Halting the duel to buy more arrows is allowed if agreed upon.
^WHAT IS THE POINT OF THIS RULE IF PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED TO STOCK ARROWS TO GET AROUND IT.
It was always considered that if you need more than 1 pouch of arrows, you need to learn how to aim.  This rule was always  important because it prevented people who just l8z and spam igas.  Stocking arrows affects this rule and thus should be applied as such.  Iga at the risk of wasting what precious arrows you have.  If you don't know how to aim with a bow, then why bother using one?  HELLO this even applies in real life with a bow.

An unspoken rule that clearly needs to be stated: GOOD SPORTSMANSHIP IS A PART OF GM PVP
^Always has been
There are people that do nothing but complain the entire time about EVERYTHING that isn't against the rules and NEVER has been i.e the use of decoy and valk.  Saying "WTF", "BS", "OMG", or just flipping out after dying, especially without merit, is also considered unsportsmanlike. 

During my duel with #4, after chasing him around a box for almost an hour, I no longer cared.  It was 4am when we started and I had plenty of things to do this morning.  I didn't have the time nor patience for someone to ridiculously  l8z the entire time pretty much right off the bat.  I usually do, so I blame myself.  But, if you're gonna run around a box and spam arrows around the corner waiting for someone to idiotically run into them and then complain that you have no arrows left, you seriously need to re-evaluate the way you play.  (It's your fault you run out of arrows and you do so while BMing anyway)

Yes, my c/t is very well developed.  I get accused for aa all of the time and I guess I should be proud of it. 
^If people spent their time practicing their aim instead of complaining and/or l8zing/relying on spamming, I feel it would be just as good, possibly better.

If things persist the way they have been, I suppose I will just adapt to the partial BM amapk ladder that this is and I guarantee it won't be pretty. You complain about me now when I'm fully gm.. pfft good luck if I do the same thing that most of you do.


On a side note:
I dislike petty drama therefore don't mean to call anyone out because these people know who they are, and my apologies to #4 for doing so.  I also apologize for taking up so much space with this post, but this has been long overdue for me to say.



I agree with the l8z thing. there really is no good way to judge whether someones playing overly defensive unless a med is watching the duel and following u around. and even then there really are no consequences. too many ppl on this ladder do have a defensive style of gameplay and i agree it is annoying, iso some opinions on how to enforce a l8z rule.


halting to buy arrows - unless both ppl agree on this, it isnt allowed(as stated i nthe rules). i think that this rule should apply when it comes to stocking arrows too. i think you should only be allowed to stock 1 quiver of arrows outside of town, unless the two people dueling agree that they can stock the 10x+ it seems has become the custom. 700 arrows (the 350 u start with and the 1x quiver u have waiting) should be more than enough. i think this would also help on the l8z rule, ppl cant play l8z and spam iga all day if they have limited arrows.



Quote (HayzBaby @ Apr 28 2011 08:42am)
tue. But relying on a maxed out decoy is just as bad as hiding. Which also wastes our arrows, thus negates pretty much everything you've said. C/t and decoy IMO are just lame ways to "cheat" your way to a win. Untop of SB. You dont l8z, but all this is just as bad. But thats just my opinion


c/t take more skill than multi, and i wouldnt go banning multi, so theres really no problem with c/t. if its so cheap and easy to do then everyone would. maxing decoy only allows it to take like 1 more arrow than a 1 point decoy and maxing it also means u have to take 19 skill points away from somewhere else. using it alot or "Abusing" it seems kinda gay but at the same time they have to pause and stop shooting arrows to cast it, so if u multi ull likely kill the decoy and hit him. theres never been rules against valk/decoy so we really cant create any now.
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Apr 28 2011 11:00am
Amapk///1
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Apr 28 2011 11:03am
Stephen pretty much covered it. Best way to handle l8z play is to have a mediator watch.
Obviously we can't be there every time a duel happens, but we are here for these reasons.
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Apr 28 2011 11:27am
So much I want to say but let me get straight to the point, with this example:

Say two players who are of exact equal skill level are dueling against eachother and both are using frequent recasting of Decoy.

Player (A) begins the match being more defensive, he is spamming decoys and running to eat Player (B)'s arrow quantity.
Player (B) begins the match trying to fire arrows at Player (A) but it is entirely unsuccessful due to mass spaming of Decoy.
Player (B) also begins to get confused as to how this is considered GM because Player (A) is actually violating two of the major
definitions of (Overly Defensive Play), which are: Running with no intention of attacking and hiding behind objects.

Player (B) realizes 10 minutes into round #1 that Player (A) has fired little to no arrow quantity and is ultimately winning the match.
Now Player (B) must adapt to this same play style or he is going to lose to the match. Player (B) begins playing 100% defensively
at this point and stops firing arrows. He then waits for Player (A) to burn arrow quantity. Player (B) is now forced
to start casting equal amount of Decoys and to start running around corners to burn Player (A)'s arrow quantity to catch up.
not to mention the only way to HIT Player (A) is to trick him into running at you.

The ultimate point given in this example is this:

ZvZ should be a test of accuracy and interpretation skills, not a waiting game.
Abuse of defensive play promotes the elongation of duels, end of story.
If you don't want BowaPK FT5's to last 2 hours, then we need some guidelines guys.
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Apr 28 2011 12:01pm
I've seldom ran into l8z here, so I havnt a heated complaint to make.
However I've run into it sooooooo many times in zva. I usually just call l8z n town. If they continue, I won't duel them any more. I think the same rule should apply here. If someone is doint overyly defensive play (and I agree completely with Habakkuk here) call a hault to the match, and pm a med to enforce the rules of zvz ladder. If you are on the last day of your challenge, and no meds are available, we can grant a continuance until someone can. That's our end of it(med involvement I mean).
There is little that can be done to enforce this rule just by bringing it up. The rules have been there for a year now in this thread. If people choose to ignore it, that's obviously a problem.
I agree with stephan as well, a 700 arrow rule would be a good idea to reduce l8z tactics. However Habakkuk makes a good point; constant l8z to chew arrows of an opponent can get around this rule. Which is why you need to, stop, and call in a med to observe the match.
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Apr 28 2011 12:56pm
I don't think there's really a way to judge others' style, unless rules are being abode. However, I'd introduce a rule that states the map can't have any boxes on it (those square/rectangle things). It would make a game a lil bit dynamic I guess.

Stocking arrows? I see no reason to ban it, or ask opponent for permission. It definitely promotes more active challenge style, cus there's no sneakin around and trying to wait until opponent is out of arrows.

Limiting/restricting Decoy/Valk. - it would take too much from the game, and I don't think it gives any extra advantage for people who decide to go that way. You guys should also take it to the account that those people had to sacrifice some stats/skills/setups in order to make it worth a shot.

C/T - Quite hard to perform in close distances, and really risky as well. However, when used with high level'd decoy and valk, it is literally deadly, and you have to completely change your playstyle to more conservative and defensive. 3 multi volleys vs 5+ automatically guided ga's? I'd pass as well, cus there's nothing you can do except keeping distance and playing defensively.

And most important thing - GOOD SPORTSMANSHIP IS A PART OF GM PVP - Strongly agree. This is just a game, so don't get too excited about a game and relax people ;)

If you have any difficulties, or want one of meds to assist your challenge, feel free to shoot us a pm, and we'll try to help you.
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Apr 28 2011 01:00pm
I'm going to hammer something out with the other meds from this feedback.
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Apr 28 2011 01:27pm
Adapt imo.
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Apr 28 2011 02:45pm
best way to combat c/t is stay south, or stay in close range. or...... learn how to c/t and c/t them.

i think that stocking arrows should follow the same rule as halting for arrows. if player A says no to halting and no to stocking mass arrows, then i think u should only be able to stock a max of 3 extra quivers each. or something like that. theres really no point to having a rule about halting to buy arrows if ppl do stack mass at town. but at the same time, we dont want it getting down to magic arrow duels n l8z play, ive seen how that goes. and if we did a 700 arrow rule or soemthing then i think some ppl might play l8z to get u to run out of arrows, idk what the answer is here.

there shouldnt be any change to the rules concerning c/t, or valk, or decoy. they are all allowed and if someone has a new build with max decoy or something and it proves to be effective, then good for them.

good sportmanship is always encouraged but u cant force an asshole to b nice.

iso more opinions from everyone
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