Pally can't hard pt vigor or medi without prayer. And is forced to get both from scepter (missing out on bh or conc as a result) or wear insight and/or tearhaunch.

While i personally hate hard pt prayer i believe this is the rationale. Essentially a scepter could create an itemlame setup compared to other pallys

he means i am contradicting myself when i say i am nervous about allowing bowa's to have 25repl @ lld after I have allowed 1 point prayer on a paladin. Again, i dont mind allowing things rather then not allowing things, if its what people want.

This post was edited by ferdia on Dec 26 2017 02:36pm

I understand, just pointing out that rationales behind Ama replife and pally replife have different motivations. Ama replife is based on the universal cap, and where amas fall in the overall meta (i.e. are theY strong enough that they should have below universal cap). Pallys are solely, I believe, based on their skill tree, with commonly used items as a secondary motivation (i.e. how much should they be allowed if they hard pt prayer because certain items are reqd pcs).

I personally believe that there is no "good" way to limit a pally replife below 10. because honor. in reality any pally should have 0 replife if prayer is hard pt'd, but not letting a libby have the IMO bis weapon for that build is a bit rough. and its restrictive as it requires a spirit and rare weapon.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Dec 26 2017 02:52pm

very well put and basically mirrors my view.

This post was edited by ferdia on Dec 26 2017 03:32pm

I am well aware that prayer is a prereq for medi. Decent scepters can be traded for a few hundred fg at most. Price cannot be an argument while 5frw scs are allowed.


I neither think bowas should have 25 rep, nor that palas should have prayer. I wrote that i might consider it a useful tool for tvt, to put pressure on sorcteams, but perhaps 65block will be enough.
Both thesnipa & belarathon, who have experience with it spoke out against it as well. Even if someone did want it, what was the reason to ask for it? If someone has a good argument, i'm happy to listen, but 'wanting it' isn't really.

maybe Euro is at a point where they can run zero replife pallys. I just don't think it was practical for NL dueling or ESPECIALLY ladder dueling for the last decade. honor and p crown, among other sources, make this too restrictive.

that's another unsaid aspect, that rulebooks have historically been based on realm and no exceptions for ladder/nonladder. there are 10x the rare pally weapons on nonladder, and far more ammys, belts, etc to choose from to avoid replife.

I personally dueled for years on a dual spirit hammerside / insight charge side libby. its not nearly as strong as honor setup, but ive thought libby needs a nerf for a long time. just very few practical ways to do it other than "you need to build like I say". very few other builds have their replife totals, skills, and items tied together in this way. most just need to abide by a general rep cap without as many gear restrictions. the closest other example would be barbs and sins needing to stay under frw cap with respect to their skills (inc speed and BoS), but that's 2d versus 3d.



my post shouldn't be taken as a modern rationale, but rather a historical one that may be outdated. you asked to rationale, but I was unclear that I meant by my post "this is how the rules came to be". most haven't been touched for a long time, on east rules haven't changed in almost 10 years.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Dec 26 2017 03:44pm

My suggested compromise was to give palas(along with ama & asn) 20rep. 5 lower for tele chars, 5more for melee range & nec since its projectiles are too slow to 'hunt' opponents

I think personally that's a good compromise. I personally would push for no hard pt prayer at all, that's the meta I preferred on east (that we abandoned for god knows what reason like 5 years ago). rather than having 2 different caps based on skills just ban hard pt prayer.

Din with charge and vigor from tear haunch can still desynch at will. to give them 50+ replife on top of that has always seemed to be one of the worst rules in all of LLD to me.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Dec 26 2017 03:48pm

Yes, 20rep on pala without prayer. That seemed obvious

indeed it was. I meant:

20 rep for non prayer & 0-10 rep on Prayer

vs

20 rep for all pallys. prayer banned


imo even 0-10 rep pally with prayer is op.