I don't think all of what you say is true.

Yes, assuming you have a 2pb/3spirit wand, you get +1 spirit and -2 spear (or the other way around with 2pb/3spear wand) compared to Spirit equip. I don't think anyone has a 2/3/3/20 wand, but then we could re-evaluate.

It's not really 15 extra life rep because the 5 life rep from a belt is irrelevant because you could put that on with a spirit sword equip just as well, same with any other things gained on a belt.

I don't think you can come all that close to making up the mana -- you lose mana from spirit and sojs. Best possible rings are going to be 90 mana, 15 energy, which is 120 mana -- so 240 total. Without sojs, +mana will just add however many it says on the item (no +% mana -- ignoring possible caster boots, don't think anyone is using those), so that's exactly 240 new mana in place of old items. This means 737 mana on my nec -- maybe add 30 for jewels? Spirit/sojs give my nec 947 mana. That's -210 mana by using the wand.

Now this is for a 359 mana inventory (480 being perfect) and average mana adds on other items. The sojs add a % of mana, so the better your inventory (and mana adds on other items), the greater the disparity, and so the more mana you're missing by using the wand. It's probably about a 280 mana difference for mikey

Then there's fhr. Say our goal is 86 fhr regardless of setup. Spirit equip = (55 + x) fhr vs wand equip = x fhr (x = fhr in helm+shield+belt+boots). The maximum possible for x is 10 helm + 17 shield + 24 belt + 20 boots = 71 (without giving up life rep from skulls, which takes away from the few advantages of the equip). Best case scenario, you need to give up 3 inventory slots = 45 life -- 2-3 more slots if you hope to make up the extra 10 frw from Sanders, but suppose we just take the loss there.

I think you can realistically expect to gain a little life with the wand equip -- supposing you require the wand jewels for str/dex. Rings can add more life, which can make up the 89 you lost from the fhr charms and 22 vit from Spirit -- again, best case scenario with regard to fhr. Although, effectively, I'm fairly sure you still will be able to take less damage than with spirit because of the 8 magic absorb from Spirit.

In total:

Pros
+1 skill to spirit (or spear)
+a little life (with great fhr items)
+up to 10 life rep

Cons
-2 skills to spear (or spirit)
-approximately 180 to 280 mana (with great rings)
-damage that can be taken

So, it works out a little better than I expected. If you can manage with the mana loss and it's quite a long duel, it appears to be a useful option with very good items.

I prefer to balance spear/spirit damage for NvN, so the skill bonus is more a con for me overall, but I could see how the life rep could make it worthwhile in some cases.

i like the work you did there bro. the only issue is that your going to have less life with legit gear (i dont think i've seen a necro circ being used with 10fhr, legit 20fhr boots are pretty rare, and 17fhr on a good head is somewhat rare).

i'd like to explain the 8magic sorb a little better though. this is a reversal of up to 16pvp dmg per hit. if you have 916 spear (common nvn setup dmg) you're going to have 145 pvp dmg. assuming they use a 13mdr magi you're down to 132. assuming they don't have any other mdr gear and have 900 life it would take 6.9 spears to kill them. once you factor in spirit reduction though the dmg is decreased to 116 and it will take 7.8 spears to kill them. it would take an extra 100life to make up for this mdr reduction. I don't think you're going to find, in anything outside d2peekay anyways, a setup that is going to give you 100+ life with the fhr you need to make up for. this grows to an even greater advantage the more rep life and base life you have.

spears taken with spirit=7.8
spears taken with wand=6.9
(no rep/900life)

This post was edited by mikeyjd on Oct 30 2010 07:47am

shael rune > x3 5% fhr scs. it would be a very high budget build yy. brokebackz is the only one with a belt that allows for maximum dmg (apparently he is using it on a 75% fcr wand build iirc from his trophy room thread) - $200 belt (15% fcr)

This post was edited by Mr_Puddles on Oct 30 2010 09:42am

I don't think you understood that simple point I was trying to make, but great homework you dd there

Since I gave the best way to reach it with spirit (which is better) and multiple people insist on using a wand for 125fcr I decided to contribute my thoughts.

Assuming you have a 2pnb/20fcr/3spear or 3spirit wand

Pros
+1 skill to spirit (or spear from the staff mods)
+up to 10 life rep (rings)

Cons
-2 skills to the opposite spear or spirit=less overall dmg
fhr breakpoint: everyone that I know that has tried to get 86fhr with gives up and settles for 56. this will cause you to lose on a regular bases in a spear shootout and get locked into taking multiple spirits. (if you have legit normal gear this is what is realistically attainable [10fcr/24fhr belt // 30frw/10fhr boots // 17fhr head] 51fhr from those / + 1sc for 56fhr breakpoint) using soe is -dmg and -life which is inadvisable.
-approximately 180 to 280 mana (with great rings)
-damage that can be taken

yeah that's my bad on that, i kept saying 15 for the rep but in 125 set up with spirit you would already have that extra 5 from the fcr belt. so yeah rings = 10 more + mdr + res and other stuff gained.

Yes, I meant to give it the best possible gear to show that I don't think it's even better with that, much less with the equip people are going to have. 17 fhr head on a good head is equally as rare as deflecting on a good head I imagine.

With a shael, you're only gaining +1 to a single skill (or 1 all, 1 single skills with 15 fcr belt -- don't know what the fhr is on that), 5 life rep, and 45 additional life from this equip overall, which kind of takes away from the point of even using it.

i found a s/s of his belt. i thought it had 24% fhr before

Just showing that it's not that much life rep and it is significantly less mana. And, I just wanted to investigate it anyway.



Don't think you're making up the 8 magic sorb with any extra mdr there.

Good point though, it's a pretty significant stack res advantage (30 single res from each ring?) without having to switch charms.