a valid recommendation, and putting in your thoughts is what this topic is about.

i think banning 5frw scs would be a point worth considering for mld as well, since it puts a nerf on the dominant ama

You could go so far as to ban "all items that can not spawn in the current patch", if you want to take steps to lessen the gap between wealthy and poor.

My worry is that banning anything at all which requires a major build change could result in active players quitting rather than changing their builds which they may have had for 10 years. We would all like to see the gap between wealthy/poor lessened and duel results to be based as purely on personal skill as possible... At the same time I'm pretty sure that at this point in the game, most people would rather get a duel vs someone with 5%s than have nobody to duel at all. I can't say much about this last point though since I have been playing single player exclusively for over a year.

I would also like to mention that hitting where someone will be rather than where they are shown is not a skill that is confined to glitched frw duels. With WSG allowed on east, we have had to learn this skill a decade ago. IMO glitched frw does nothing but hurts pvp. At least with WSG you can tell when they are moving all weirdly, and you can change your predictions on movement as such. With glitched frw they literally disappear just in regular movement. If you don't start off knowing the FRW of that particular character, then the only thing that can let you equal the playing grounds is experience vs that particular character. How does this promote a balanced FT5 in a tourney setting?

This post was edited by Belarathon on Dec 25 2017 06:10am

not sure how the situation is on east regarding prepatch items, but on europe i don't think they have nearly as significant an impact as 5frw. i.e the 'annoying the people vs added balance of poor vs rich' ratio is not worth it in my opinion.

as for strbug on frw items: frw from charms is as much of an influence on desynch as strbug on frw items. so there will always be desynch, regardless of whether we allow strbug or not. in my experience, predicting your opponents position is less of an issue if you can teleport. you are correct in saying that experience vs a particular character helps you to deal with its desynch, but the same is true for your opponent. so that should not affect the odds of winning.

allowing wsg is another issue, and in my experience the desynch with it is far larger than with glitched frw. also, the toll it takes on asn is not justified due to their lack of dominance in my experience.

I see your point regarding banning prepatch items. I think the same applies on East, I wasn't thinking about your 'annoying the people vs added balance of poor vs rich' ratio at the time, good point.

I think allowing WSG is good. The desynch with WSG is greater than that of glitched FRW, you are correct. But the key factor is that you can tell when someone is WSGing, and therefore can tell when they are going to be acting weirdly in regards to actual position vs apparent position. With glitched FRW, the effect is less but certainly still there, and it could be literally any time in the duel that they are not where they seem to be. This is not fair in a FT5 tourney setting in a duel say, bowzon vs wind druid.

Examples:
They have 150% FRW, they have glitched FRW, WSG is banned: It is impossible to know where they are at any given time unless you start the duel knowing how much FRW they have. (ie hits landed during this glitched frw = luck)
They have 150% FRW, no glitched FRW, WSG is allowed: When not WSGing, they are where they are shown on the map, minus the unchangeable desynch which happens in D2 regardless. They will "frw-tele" while WSGing, but given experience with WSG + acquired skills it is extremely easy to tell when someone is WSGing, and you can adjust your aim accordingly (ie hits landed during WSG = experience with WSG + skill)
This is not even mentioning the fact that some of the most powerful characters in LLD, including the absolute most powerful, depend on telestomps to win. Allowing WSG gives the FRW-based players a better chance to escape these deadly characters (some telestomp characters can either be the deadliest or the worst characters ever, depending on the player)... Especially if there is a FRW cap.

I think that euro has some rules which are absolutely on point (ie not allowing paladins to hardskill prayer), but IMO your FRW rules could use a total overhaul. Probably too late though, I'm afraid.

if you have 150% frw on your amazon, 90% (assuming 30frw circ+boots) of that is glitched on east and 120% is on europe. so, in relative terms for this example, east has 75% of europe's glitched frw (as i mentioned in my previous post: frw on charms is treated as glitched frw).
also, when you telestomp, don't you land on the opponent's actual position, rather than where it appears to be?

the initial hit won't be more difficult to land with more glitched frw. the following hits might be, but that has nothing to do with aim.

This post was edited by rudipk on Dec 25 2017 07:02am

Yes, you are correct. I actually didn't remember that charm frw is glitched. I think you wrote that in one of your earlier posts in this thread now that I am thinking about it? But for some reason it must not have registered. It has been a long time since I have actively built a character/thought about mechanics

When you stomp you land exactly where the character is, but if they are invisible then you don't know which way they are going, was my original point... However now that I have considered it further, I see that anyone being stomped would be WSGing anyways, which would mean the same thing.

I still find it very lame that a character can run in a straight line with no WSG and still desynch quite well. Since charm FRW is glitched as well then I suppose there is nothing that can be done about it. If it was only str-glitched gear that provided glitched FRW (as was my original thought), then it would be a different story. I can say one thing, dueling vs characters without str-glitched boots and vs str-glitched boots, I thought I could notice a difference in the "position display glitching". Is it definitely glitched in exactly the same way? It definitely could have been all in my head, since when I was considering this I *knew* which opponents had str-glitched boots and when.

Anyways, clearly I am no longer knowledgeable enough to partake in a debate regarding WSG/glitched FRW, so I will opt out! I still hope that it inspired some thought and that 5% frw scs will be looked at with some scrutiny

this is a debate you should have with blizzard, rather than europe duelers, i guess.
the only reason is see for keeping 5frw is whining rich people afraid of losing (some of) their edge! not a good enough reason for me, especially since the fg from selling a single 3max/5frw is enough to build an entire, well equipped char that can then bring more variety to duels or be shared out to more duelers.
it's a good point that should at least be discussed. i never even considered it until you brought it up, so thanks for that!

also, this rich vs poor debate reminded me of this:

MLD
The higher the total frw, the more favourable it is to amazons. That needs to be understood as a fact. What also should be acknowledged is that amazons have been top-heavy in MLD tournaments (which gives amazons more chances of winning a tournament).

The original MLD rules allowed higher FRW. i.e. Bowa's originally ran around with 120FRW. Through successive tournaments that was reduced to 100FRW until the current 85FRW limit. Limiting total FRW has allowed more (land-based) classes to catch amazons and reduced the impact of glitched frw. This, amoungst other changes made, has contributed to 6 of the 7 classes winning a MLD Tournament. Druid is the only class that has not won a MLD Tournament. However its not the rules (teleport has been allowed since 2011) but rather player willingness to play tele druids that has prevented this from happening. As previously demonstrated by lam3r and most recently by Twinsin, Tele Druids are more then viable. While amazons have won a fair number of tournaments it must be noted that, broadly, the tournaments are relatively small. However, there have been many skilled players that have come and gone and shown that the other classes are equally viable. That can not be said for LLD (or 18 for that matter).

LLD
As previously stated, I never touched the lvl 30 rules. This was mainly due to hostility from numerous players that simply did not want to change the status quo @ 30. However, the rules were changed, by harabec, and this enabled necro's to win a couple of tournaments (75% to 85% Fire resistance). Do I agree with this change ? Yes. The matchup vs Sorc is now more balanced. Are necro's now overpowered ? no. We have simply had excellent nec players win tournaments. As it stands 4 of 7 classes have now won lvl 30 tournaments @ eu, where it would otherwise have remained @ 3 of 7.

Are sorc's still overpowered @ lld? Yes.

I acknowledge the comment re: 5frw charms. However - by capping the total frw (this applies to all brackets) - this reduces the impact of 5frw charms. Where before an MLD amazon would wear 25frw from boots, 30 from circ and then +13 charms for 120FRW, now its only +5 for 85FRW. The builds that benefit mostly from FRW are Barbs and Shapers, which (without teleport) are at a distinct disadvantage vs all other classes. It is therefore difficult for me to weaken those builds. The difference between amazons with plain 5frw or 3frw/ar/max is not so great anymore.
More concerning is having higher repl limits at 30, which I believe is even worse then 5frw small charms. The difference between 5 charms can be +15 max damage, but a player with 13replenish life vs a player with 25 replenish life @ 30, is huge. I find it difficult to reconcile I must admit. I won't comment on East 15life/70mana small charms.

With regards to glitched FRW, all skilled "frw based" barbs are by definition able, to a degree, to read glitched movement. Indeed it is my view that this is what makes D2 PvP even better, as it relies on a high degree of skill to read your opponents movement. The restrictions on FRW supports those classes hunting amazons.

18
At lvl 18 only 3 of 7 classes have won tournaments, and thus I see no harm in giving the other classes a competiive chance to compete. I would identify lack of suitable uniques / set items / class skills at this level as the primary reason for this which is why i echoed suggestions to allow certain builds/classes to level to 24.


Rule Modificatins (MLD)
Include CTA in the banned items. (This was an oversight)

Rule Modifications (30)
Remove the global ban on CTC Amp
Allowed 1 Point medi
Cap Sorc and Palain Replenish life @ 10 (not including skills)
All other classes - Max 25 Replenish life
Max 65% block on Sorc's.

I am still uncomfortable with the max replenish life, but if its what people want, fine.

Finally, regarding East Rules - and their use @ EU (as requested by several east and eu players): Where both players agree:

Barb, Necro, Assasin and Druids may use teleport staffs, with the following restrictions:
1. Max 75 resist
2. Max 1 Wolf, no Bear allowed, for Druids
3. Opponents may: WSG, Use KB, and have no FRW restrictions

I am not convinced that the above will take on EU, thus the proviso will be "These rules will apply were both players agree". And for the record, I will agree to anyone that wishes to duel vs me with these rules.
I also think shapers needs more frw but im consious that too many exceptions makes it a rulebook, thus i will leave it as is. there is enough in here already.

Rule Modifications (18)
I will let James & Co. decide on what, if any changes, they want.
My own view is : Cthon should stay. a limit on ama frw @ 50, (with or without str bug), should improve several matchups though.
Sorc to 24 seems to be generally agreed. As noted, my suggestion here is 0, or limited replenish life. (shapers - thats probably another days consideration).

If i have missed something, let me know.

This post was edited by ferdia on Dec 26 2017 09:19am

ps - 18 - look at nerfing paladins somehow since the alternative (boosting all classes) is simply not feasible.

Mld
When we tested tele-druid, lam3r and i dueled your ama and suggested 15dr & 1pet. Domewhere along the process that got thrown out for unknown reasons. I think at least the 1wolf/no bear limit should also apply to mld. For example, i don't see how i could take a round off dan under current rules as necro. There's still vine & oak to block hits & 5ravens to stun. Ama additionally is forced into dodge by hurricane (that was banned in euro-pvp for example). That should make up for loss of maneuverability compared to sorc.

Lld
Your concern for repl and allowing prayer are contradicting each other. As i pointed out, 1pt prayer is almost 50repl. What's the rationale here?
I suggest a compromise where we set 20 rep as standard, reduce that by 5-10 for tele-chars & vice versa for barb, nec, shape (low maneuverability and/or range).