Quote (SirEdwards @ May 21 2010 01:07pm)

Yeah I am with u. I just think that 18 needs a mini "extension" for certain builds like vlld had. Idk but I guess that when they were first established the vlld-lld brackets it only was 9 18 and 30. Then vlld players found out there were few other builds with nice stuff that failed hard with the other builds (aka casters). In that moment they made the 9-12 extension for vlld and it just improved that bracket. We need a new patch for that "18" imo. I would b really happy if everyone could agree.

The point isn't to make weaker builds strong enough to pwn the others, it will be just to make them strong enough to be taken seriously. They will still lose to cookie cutters but at least will b fun to use and worth a try. I almost deleted my cs/bow zon a few times. Was really frustrating rmking her and thinking in every possible way to make it stronger enough to duel others, but failing. Apart from pubs she couldnt kill almost anything apart another 18 cs zon I met lol. Was like a joke seeing necs not even moving to kill me or zealers not even losing 1/4 of life or not going to heal to duel me again. Today I lvl'd her to 20 and for the first time I enjoyed dueling minifoots chars. I still got pk'd but at least he had to run with the nec and was bit forced to use some resi on the pala (aka he took the cs as a real char) He also had fun dueling her for the first time, coz we all know that ez duels are kinda boring.

The cs example can be applied to shappers and maybe sorcs (dunno about them tho since never made one but to me sorc > cs or shaper since it's ranged, but still have the very low dmg issue). If this could be agreed Im 100% sure lld will gain more popularity at least in that community coz tell me, who wouldn't like to try a shaper or something knowing fg wont be wasted?

ps: rofl what a wall of text

Quote (elusive @ May 20 2010 07:20pm)

it has to be clear without a doubt that any sort of "level modification" for builds makes that build competitive - not dominant

hence why id love to see maulers @ 21 i think it'd be unfair to, in essence, use 9/60/45s gc (3x 3/20/15) vs 6/48/20s that basically all 18s use

Quote (SirEdwards @ 20 May 2010 16:07)

Yeah I am with u. I just think that 18 needs a mini "extension" for certain builds like vlld had. Idk but I guess that when they were first established the vlld-lld brackets it only were 9 18 and 30. Then vlld players found out there were few other builds with nice stuff that failed hard against the other ones (aka casters). In that moment they made the 9-12 extension for vlld  and it just improved that bracket. We need a new patch for that "18" imo. I would b really happy if everyone could agree.

The point isn't to make weaker builds strong enough to pwn the others, it will be just to make them strong enough to be taken seriously. They will still lose to cookie cutters but at least will b fun to use and worth a try. I almost deleted my cs/bow zon a few times. Was really frustrating rmking her and thinking in every possible way to make it stronger enough to duel others, but failing. Apart from pubs she couldnt kill almost anything apart another 18 cs zon I met lol. Was like a joke seeing necs not even moving to kill me or zealers not even losing 1/4 of life or not going to heal to duel me again. Today I lvl'd her to 20 and for the first time I enjoyed dueling minifoots chars. I still got pk'd but at least he had to run with the nec and was bit forced to use some resi on the pala (aka he took the cs as a real char) He also had fun dueling her for the first time, coz we all know that ez duels are kinda boring.

The cs example can be applied to shappers and maybe sorcs (dunno about them tho since never made one but to me sorc > cs or shaper since it's ranged, but still have the very low dmg issue). If this could be agreed Im 100% sure lld will gain more popularity at least in that community coz tell me, who wouldn't like to try a shaper or something knowing fg wont be wasted?

ps: rofl what a wall of text

e/corrected few grammar mistakes xD

Quote (elusive @ May 21 2010 12:20am)

it has to be clear without a doubt that any sort of "level modification" for builds makes that build competitive - not dominant

hence why id love to see maulers @ 21 i think it'd be unfair to, in essence, use 9/60/45s gc (3x 3/20/15) vs 6/48/20s that basically all 18s use

Quote (SirEdwards @ May 20 2010 07:44pm)

Yeah, I and everyone that support this lvl extension completely agree with this. Btw to put an example, if maulers n to go to 21 instead 19-20 (which they prolly will n), we could try to ban lvl 21 lcs and scs and let them use only the gcs. That way would be 10/74/20 vs 6/48/20 (it's the first thing that came up to my mind right now xD).

Quote (SirEdwards @ 21 May 2010 02:44)

Yeah, I and everyone that support this lvl extension completely agree with this. Btw to put an example, if maulers n to go to 21 instead 19-20 (which they prolly will n), we could try to ban lvl 21 lcs and scs and let them use only the gcs. That way would be 10/74/20 vs 6/48/20 (it's the first thing that came up to my mind right now xD).
Only scs able to use would be the lvl 17 ones.

Quote (elusive @ 21 May 2010 01:44)

in no way will the 18 bracket be balanced - physical characters reign supreme, but semi-obscure builds like fb/fissure/trapper/psy hammerlol are very solid in tvts

Quote (SirEdwards @ May 21 2010 12:07am)

Yeah I am with u. I just think that 18 needs a mini "extension" for certain builds like vlld had. Idk but I guess that when they were first established the vlld-lld brackets it only were 9 18 and 30. Then vlld players found out there were few other builds with nice stuff that failed hard against the other ones (aka casters). In that moment they made the 9-12 extension for vlld  and it just improved that bracket. We need a new patch for that "18" imo. I would b really happy if everyone could agree.

The point isn't to make weaker builds strong enough to pwn the others, it will be just to make them strong enough to be taken seriously. They will still lose to cookie cutters but at least will b fun to use and worth a try. I almost deleted my cs/bow zon a few times. Was really frustrating rmking her and thinking in every possible way to make it stronger enough to duel others, but failing. Apart from pubs she couldnt kill almost anything apart another 18 cs zon I met lol. Was like a joke seeing necs not even moving to kill me or zealers not even losing 1/4 of life or not going to heal to duel me again. Today I lvl'd her to 20 and for the first time I enjoyed dueling minifoots chars. I still got pk'd but at least he had to run with the nec and was bit forced to use some resi on the pala (aka he took the cs as a real char) He also had fun dueling her for the first time, coz we all know that ez duels are kinda boring.

The cs example can be applied to shappers and maybe sorcs (dunno about them tho since never made one but to me sorc > cs or shaper since it's ranged, but still have the very low dmg issue). If this could be agreed Im 100% sure lld will gain more popularity at least in that community coz tell me, who wouldn't like to try a shaper or something knowing fg wont be wasted?

ps: rofl what a wall of text

e/corrected few grammar mistakes xD

Quote (rjg @ May 21 2010 03:49am)

the level 12 vlld builds were created not because they were disadvantaged at nine, but because they used level 12 skills (shiver armor, maul).  even the disadvantaged vlld builds like bashers stayed at 9.

if you have a level 18 build that isn't competitive at 18, you should level it up on your own and duel your friends that way.  you can figure out the best balance on your own, and everyone is happy

but trying to set some official level cap beyond 18 is going to get to be too much.  i only suggested 19 for sorcs because they're so underpowered as it is, and it might give someone an incentive to try out the build if they think it's new