I work in the chemical industry. The EPA defines the term "Gross negligence" as willful misconduct. The gross and criminal negligence categories carry their toughest fine schedules. Any fraudulent activity will be handled with separate charges likely directly from the state department in this instance. I'm glad you learned something today.

Well the EPA is using the wrong word then. In a legal context, negligence is carelessness, the type of behaviour of which deviates from how a "reasonable" person would behave. So negligence implies they didn't do something (i.e. fix the problem) when they should have known better; ex. Toyota with the unintended acceleration issue, and GM with their ignition switches. Gross negligence is severe carelessness, but is established under the same guidelines, which are in a basic sense (no need complicating them for our purposes) establishing that a duty of care exists, and that reckless behaviour violated this.

Note that this is not what the US government is going after VW for. They are going after VW for 1) willfully and purposively sidestepping EPA regulations 2) false advertising. When the US government went after GM and Toyota, they were going after them for negligence. With VW, they are essentially going after them for fraud. This is mostly because while the EPA is using negligence rhetoric, they will never be able to establish in court that VAG actually caused physical harm as a result of the emissions cheat. There's a reason that the EPA is not probing them for this (even though they would probably like to), and that we saw that large group of business and environmental leaders call on the US government to drop their suit against VW. The latter's argument (and something Elon Musk, moving this back to Tesla, believed) was that the amount by which diesel exhaust contributes to air pollutants is negligible and instead making VW pay a fine to the US government, they should punish them by forcing them to invest more money in zero-emissions vehicles instead.

So long story short, VW is being investigated for what amounts to fraud, not gross negligence, given that it would be impossible for the US government to prove criminal gross negligence, and very unlikely they could prove it in civil proceedings either. But I'm glad you learned something today too

Lol... the rage in you is strong. Take that up with the EPA. It's their terminology. I've had the privilege of dealing with them a few times now. I can't stand them.

Do you ride The People's pole or something? You seem to be quite invested in this.

Of course Elon Musk wants the Germans to be forced to invest in zero emissions. Rather self serving isn't it? The company I work for us producing a new phosphate product that will serve as the stabilizer in the matrix of the next gen batteries he plans to produce in Nevada so I'm not hating.

It's not rage, it's facts, and I'm not going to play ring around the rosie with you again just because I corrected you. I don't have to take anything up with the the EPA, because this case isn't about gross negligence. It's about breaking the EPAs rule, and the FTC is probing them for false advertising. That's it, it's not about gross negligence. If you google "VW diesel gross negligence", all you will find is media outlets accusing VW of doing this. If you look into what USGOV is actually probing VW for, you won't find those words. So this is where I end this conversation, because I have no desire to indulge your desire to pick a fight with me, especially over something that didn't even happen. Diesel gate is about fraud, not negligence, partially because the case is about fraud, and partially because they could never prove it. There is nothing else to say.

Obviously what Musk said was self-serving, but that's not the point. He wasn't the only leading figure who called on the US government to stop pursuing damages/criminal prosecution. VAG is the biggest manufacturer in the world, their money is better spent developing technologies than paying fines for something American manufacturers can do.

I know the EPA system and how it works. The fine is not handed out until the investigation has concluded. It's not an accusatory term, it is a finding. They don't investigate for it, they investigate everything. This is a complex case with many moving parts. If the board of directors did not know about the defeat system THEY will be guilty of gross negligence for failing to maintain control of their subordinates. That's how it works. I've sat in meetings with and been questioned by the EPA and EPD. The last I read on this issue the VAG board's current stance was to deny all wrongdoing on their part and condemn the action, offering up middle management and a meat shield. That is practocally the definition of gross negligence in the industrial world.

Are you in the legal field? Do you have any experience with how federal agencies or the EPA works? It's a rather illogical process.

Effin a... Imagine if they did let the amarok over here and people found out you can get a truck that can tow 11,000 lbs, and get over 40mpgs during daily commuting.. They would sell like hotcakes! Let alone if the polo/lupo 3cyl diesel came over with its 99 mpgs... Either way GMexxonEPA full profit organization has the lock on this countries automobiles, and forces heavier restrictions on outside products instead of actually building something better. Vw may have been wrong, but the heavy restrictions that kept Vw from having a competing chance had a lot to do with it. Both in the wrong, its all about $$$ with trash government organizations like EPA and FDA, fuck both of them in my book. Let's not forget the Colorado river and how nothing came out of the environmental catastrophe, no fines, no nothing... Epa just said oops, my bad.

I'll just keep my TDI with just under 400,000 miles till it dies, bitch going strong and smooth so that will be a while

OK...I don't care if you know how the EPA system works, that's not what this case is about. If it was about gross negligence, we would have already heard about it. It's not, VW is being investigated for the two offenses I mentioned. What you think the case shouldn't be about doesn't make it that. If the EPA had wanted to pursue that, they would have done so already and forced offending cars to be recalled. They have not done that, and cannot do that because they cannot establish that the cars physically harmed anyone.

Perhaps you should read up on the case instead of assuming you know so much about the EPA that you know what they will do.



The Canadian dealer council has been clamouring for VW Canada to bring the Amarok over regardless of whether they couldn't import it to the US because of those reasons, a lot of customers have asked about it. I probably would have bought one. But I'm not sure if they could gain a meaningful market share unless the price could be dropped down. I heard that the base 2.0T Amarok was going to retail above $30,000CND, probably closer to $40,000, and the 2.0TDI and 3.0TDI's were going to be at least $40,000 and most would approach $50,000 if not go over. That's a lot of money for a mid-sized trucks. Tacoma buyers and VW loyalists would lap them up, but unless they go the price down I'm not sure how well they'd do.

My dad spent over 50k usd for his new full size 1500 Chevy, basic gas motor. Prices for new trucks are already insane lol

From EPA.GOV-


Can EPA require Volkswagen to recall these vehicles?

Yes. EPA has the authority under section 207 of the Clean Air Act to require a manufacturer to issue a recall when EPA determines that a substantial number of vehicles do not conform to EPA regulations.


Is EPA officially requiring Volkswagen to issue a recall now?

No. EPA expects to order the manufacturers to issue a recall in the future to reduce the emissions impacts of these vehicles. Owners will be notified of that recall once Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi have developed remedial plans and EPA has approved the plans. Manufacturers are given a reasonable amount of time to develop a plan to complete the repairs, including both the repair procedure and manufacture of any needed parts. Depending on the complexity of the repair and the lead time needed to obtain the necessary components, it could take up to one year to identify corrective actions, develop a recall plan, and issue recall notices.


Like I said, it is a long process, hundreds of lawyers will be involved on both sides. What they end up getting for a fine will largely depend on their compliance with the EPA and how quickly and to what extent they propose corrective actions. What you don't seem to understand is the investigation isn't over so they can't possibly know what they are going to fine them for, and what the fine will be. Literally the last thing that will happen is the EPA issuing it's findings and penalties. You won't hear them mention the terms used for any of those fine schedules until the findings are released. That would be libel and totally unfair to VAG. You seem really biased on this one. I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm not going to sit here and let you blow sunshine up my ass though.

This post was edited by FMX_89 on Jun 15 2016 04:06pm

True enough, but when all your models are that expensive, and your truck isn't even full sized it's a bitter pill to swallow for most buyers.



That's not how the law works, and your copy-pasta doesn't prove what you're saying. The US government is suing VW for a very specific set of offenses, which are not gross negligence. They can't all of sudden say "shit, we actually want to sue them for something else. Your honour, you know all that paperwork we filed for VW doing that thing? Actually we want to sue them for killing people now." What VW does to comply with EPA regulations and what they pay for breaking the rules are entirely separate subjects. The legal process and VW working through fixes are different, just as they were with GM, and just as they were with Toyota. Whatever happens with the Justice Departments suit (which they filed on behalf of the EPA, so there is nothing else coming) will be decided without attention to the EPA and VW's negotiations on the fix. The penalties are no longer in the EPAs hands, they've reported their findings to the Justice Department and it's their job to pursue this. It took so long to get the Justice Department suit started because the EPA had to decide what they were going after VW for.

The copy-pasta doesn't prove anything because that outlines how the EPA plans to recall the vehicles; after a fix is announced. Not anytime sooner, because they can't prove the cars are actively harming people. The one year timeline is for VW to develop a fix, something they've already done and have satisfied every other market but somehow the EPA keeps rejecting it. It's not a timeline for the EPA to decide they want to sue VW for something else.

What you don't understand is there is no more investigation. The EPA has already told the Justice Department what to sue VW for, and now the process is about negotiating the settlement (because these things never go to trial). The only thing more to "investigate" with any regard to gross negligence is to determine whether the vehicles have actually directly caused deaths. But they've already done studies and most are inconclusive, and you'll never be able to pass the burden of proof on them alone. Which means you can't prove gross negligence.