almost every single time i link a prefab i discuss the downside of it with the people. not everyone wants to deal with finding a local shop, putting together a design and then having to wait on it. it fits peoples needs and im not going to pressure them into doing something that doesn't fit their needs.

in the $50-60 range i always suggest pioneer so xplods are irrelevant. there is a large difference in xplods and atrs but atrs and sa series the difference is barely there and it cost them 30%more. sundown vs atr in a daily use system is a completely negligible margin.

if people had larger budget i'm perfectly aware of higher quality brands and when it fits i will use it. when somoene says they have $800 for everything i can safely assume $250-300 in headunit/speakers/wiring so that leaves me $500 to get the most out of. in at that point $60-70 $120-140 price difference is huge.

Please explain to me how the difference between an SA-12 and TYPE R are barely there? I would love to hear this one... You do realize Sundowns created a unique cooling that most companies are adapting right now including the new DC M2 designs that allow for incredible power handling with very small coils and large magnets? The SA-12 is rated for 600 but can take around 1500+rms each if ran correctly, can a Type R do that? IMO The difference between an XPLOD and a Type R are minimal, they use similar cooling, identical coils and surround material from China and similar spiders Type R's don't even have woven tinsels to handle over 1000w because they would break or blow from over-excursion, they also don't have padding on the cone so you get Tinsel slap at an excess of 600rms oo that must sound GREAT.

You need to learn a little more about your subwoofers and the differences. Sundowns are awesome and SA-12's are an incredible woofer for the price offer anything less in the $150-200 range is almost criminal with some of the prices right now in the industry for the REAL competition brands. I almost don't even consider Kicker, Alpine, Rockford, JL and option to be honest unless someone specifies it's what they desire.

and none of my listings have ever cost $120-140 more than a type R... maybe 50-60 at most and there are other brands than SA-12 that tromp type R's and cost a bit less than SA-12's. You're a fan of AQ but I've never seen you recommend AQ SDC2.5's that are only a mere $180 shipped and cost $60 more than a Type R. Hell you can get Lanzar Max Pro 12's that are similiar to a Type R for $50... Theres quality in the brand it makes all the difference the shit Alpine uses to make their subwoofers and the designs they have they are $50 subwoofers imo to pay $120 for them is op, you can get the same you get from a Type R out of a $50-60 subwoofer, so why not get that instead? and save them A LOT MORE money.

You do realize you pay for the name right? on all of those brands... in a store or online doesn't matter, it's mass produced mainstream audio it's expensive and cheap. You recommend what you want I won't bash it but don't insult my advice, I know what I'm talking about I've built many subwoofers I have an 18" I'm in the process of making a recone video on right now with custom spacers that I added to increase throw and excursion without bottoming out and to have better cooling for more power handling while having parameters that meet the value of a sealed enclosure so I can fit it in my truck.

I mean I guess for $120 they're not bad, bottom bin but not bad, but don't compare them to DC Level 3's with level 4 soft parts or sundown 12's because then you just look stupid.

This post was edited by Hellish Orc on Feb 21 2012 04:25pm

$120-140 as in a set. it was double the single price so i figured it would be obvious.

i hardly ever get an opportunity to recommend at $200 range sub in this forum. its one of those things that never comes up because it doesn't fit the low budget setups that most people want in here.

atrs aren't close to xplod specs at all so explain how subs that average 6mm excursion would have almost identical design as a sub that does 20mm. that single spec alone shows they are entirely different designs inside.

like i said your opinion is your opinion and not a fact. if ATRs are such junk and everyone thinks so then explain why they are so commonplace even at competition. everyone knows they're junk right but you will see them all over just pounding away.

for 30% more sa-12s are better but at $200 there is a lot of competition for them in the price range. you can always say "its just $60+ more" because there is always going to be competition in that general price range. unless you have the funds to get the absolute best you are always confined to budget and millions of opinions. sa-12s are nice but i guarantee at $200 you will find someone like you going "just spend more for something better" because thats just the way it is.

atrs are the best in the price range and its why they are so common. no one is telling people with $10000 to get ATRs we are only giving people the best for the budget instead of harassing them with "just spend more".

mm or excursion only goes so far my subs only have 23 xmax and get a lot louder than R's. but point taken, price varies... but a pair of Type R's is not $120 it's $120 per subwoofer, if you can get them $60 a piece then by all means get Type R's. I'm just saying @ 120 ea. don't compare them to sa-12's and similiar subs. and they're not known for competition at all from what I've seen only people in Maine and NH run R's at competitions...

This post was edited by Hellish Orc on Feb 21 2012 05:43pm

what i was saying was to get a pair of sa-12s instead of atr 12s is 120-140 dollar difference. that price difference is almost enough to get a mb quart 1000.1 amp to power the ATRS.

if someone had just over $400 two atrs+amp is going to end up better than a single sa-12+amp because i would have to go way over budget to work in sa-12s.

1000w and a proper box I guarantee a SA-12 would get louder... Type R's don't even get loud until 600rms so you'd need 1200w just to run them properly, while an SA-12 would take 1k+ all day and get really loud off it and provide more space for a bigger better box. I guess I'm just going to in-depth for people who knows I guess we provide 2 different types of services.

while a sa-12 400rms overpowered would be similar to a 2 200rms underpowered atrs is not the point. atrs in places are half the price of the sa-12 so thats not really surprising.

so 2 atrs vs 1 sa-12 on the same amp is going to be similar for the same price. the issue is that extra power is gradually killing the sa-12s lifespan whereas the atrs are in their comfort zones.

the atrs are going to be better for a long term daily use system under this circumstance while the sa-12 is going to be better for someone not running it hours at time.

and the amp part was just making a point. the 1500.1 amp is like $20 more than the 1000 model.

But they aren't similar have you ever even heard an SA-12 off 1000w+? They hit like 143-144db's all day @ 35hz which is better than all the dual atr's with 1500-2kw setups fun fact my friend has a SA-15" off a 1000w rockford prime @ 4 ohm and hit a 143 @ 35hz and under 1000w. Trust me they aren't the same the SA would be louder. Not to mention not all trunks can fit 2 12" subs comfertably with enough air space a single 12" has more air space and more room for a proper enclosure it's hard to fit 2 12's in a trunk with an amp and make it 4-4.5ft^3 unless you get a 3ft^3 prefab that's way too small.

and they are NOT twice as much I can get SA-12's for $380 a pair shipped while it's $240 a pair of alpines that's $140 more not twice as much. and the extra power is not going to kill the life span the ATR's would blow off 1000w far before the SA would lol that's a fact.

for any use the SA-12/15 would be a way better deal by far. I just prefer quality over quantity that's all... I don't believe in cheap systems that "work" I believe in quality theres enough Alpine Type R bargain builds around that sound like crap for me to know they aren't a good recommendation for anyone just a waste of money. Buying a prefab and two r's is just asking for inefficiency throw an HFI in the mix you have blown speakers and a not very loud good sounding system but go ahead keep recommending all you want I'll do it my way.

This post was edited by Hellish Orc on Feb 21 2012 06:23pm

atrs@1500 would do around 142 so the difference isn't huge unless you are competing. a sa-12@1000 would definitely be around 144 but this comes with a lot more effort involved and not something that an entry level person should attempt to do right.

you can eebay/amazon atrs pretty easily @$100 per.

it would be sad if a sa-15@1000rms watts couldn't do 143.

point is you are forgetting they are entry level people with no experience and probably no local audio shop of merit. starting them out with something like building a box themselves, tuning their setup for peak performance with zero prior experience is ridiculous.

a prefab+reliable cheaper stuff is far more practical for these situations. its not perfect but its not going to be hard for them to do.

You can't eeeebay ATR's @ $100 per and you definatly won't get any warranties which I would want. and really all it would take is a solid box to get an SA12 hitting 144 @ 1000w which I offer free specs on boxes when I suggest them. and no it's not rediculous we do it @ ca.com everyday man it's called showing people the way :-p and building/having a box built when you already have a cut sheet isn't hard to do and and the outcome far outweighs the cost, if it's hard for them to do. and why would it be sad if an SA-15 @ 1000w couldnt do 143? ATR's off 1500-2k can't do a 143 so what's so sad about it? are you admitted that a single SA-12 would be way better than ATR 12's if they can do what 2 ATRs off 2k can do off only 1k or less??

I don't care about how easy something is I set RedTea up with a new setup and it's going to slam and sound good and i talked him through everything and gave him pictures and cut sheets and he's now confident in doing the build. What are you and avoid getting fg for if all you're doing is recommending product and not tutoring at all?

This post was edited by Hellish Orc on Feb 21 2012 07:14pm