been a while since i played dota2 but I noticed a good improvement on the game's engine, everything feels a lot smoother although it is still slower than hon
overall I still prefer hon to it just because I am more used to it and I know the items and heroes better

there are differences tho and I will just name a few which I find significant
-no courier at start in dota2 really puts me off if I play pubs solo or with a friend (i dont wanna have to beg rands plz get courier)
again this is mostly solo Q or with a friend or two, a tim of 5 will always have one
-secret shop is another turn off for me simply because it's inconvenient and time consuming to go there and buy stuff
(sure u can send courier but if somebody uses it or sends it back-happend few times and I had to say hey i'm using it for secret shop)
not to mention if u got no map control and u cannot make it there and back safe
-boots are 450 in dota2 while in hon they are 500, not that big of a difference although it's worth mentioning
-same with mystic vestments which are now 500 from 400 in hon while in dota the cloak is 550
-force staff is way better in hon because of the stats it gives (+5 major totem)
-mana boots in dota seem to be common however on a hero like pyro aka lina if u wanna go more tanky/carry steam boots are a better choice (just an example)
-i really am missing the grave locket and the stats/reduced respawn (would really like to see something like that in dota, u can also upgrade it for more armor)
-same with genjuro and other items, I like the idea of being able to gradually upgrade items from early to mid game or late
(if u go shroud it can be useful but being stuck with it and unable to upgrade it will be a waste in inventory if the game gets late)
-roshan highly favors hellbourne side, in hon it's more middleish and the pit is not as tight and small
-don't like the invis dust in dota2
-tiny and pudge are way better in hon
-nayx and huskar seem to be op now
-at least people aren't so childish in dota, less flaming than hon (although one guy in 1 game was rly mad but it happens)

don't wanna make it tldr, i'll add more as it comes to me
what do u guise think?

I prefer Dota2 in almost every aspect. If HoN was still like the HoN from the beta days which was insanely fun, then it would be close, but it's changed so much I just can't stand to play it anymore. I'll go through your points 1 by 1 to tell you why I personally feel Dota2 is better

-No courier at start is a positive imo. Sure, it sucks for solo pub and you often have to get one yourself in low bracket games, but it encourages people to buy support items. A team without a courier is severely fucked in all lanes (especially mid), and so the team that's willing to invest some gold to buy one deserves to have an advantage over a lazy team that doesn't. Also, it's only 150 gold in Dota2 as opposed to 200 in HoN, so it's not all that bad. One problem is that you have no option to disable sharing the courier. This is OK in most games but it sucks so hard if you have a retard on your team who won't let you use it when you want it even after you bought it, or who gets it killed and gives the enemy like 1k gold.

-Secret shop should definitely be outside the base ONLY. The goal of the game is to take the enemy buildings and win. If you've killed all the outer towers and are sieging them, it should be harder for them to get items. If they want easy access to shop, they shouldn't let their T2 towers fall. Also, it's not that hard to micro the courier over the trees and out of enemy vision by using speed burst at the right time. Unless they have a prophet and a ward or someone camping there 24/7 you'll be able to get your item safely most of the time.

-The boots change is kind of meh. For me I've noticed it makes supporting a lot easier, whereas it doesn't really change much for carries. 50 gold is like an entire minute of waiting or time spent pulling for a support early, so the cost decrease has helped me many times.

-Mystic vestments is a good enough item to cost a little more than 400 imo. Then again, this is really minor, you just see slightly less casual vestments in Dota2.

-Force was nerfed in Dota2 because pretty much everyone was getting it and it was way too strong on int mid heroes that benefitted a ton from the +damage. It's still decent in Dota2 imo because I think it pushes slightly further, but yeah it's more expensive and mostly gives int/regen now as opposed to any actual damage.

-Mana boots are pretty great, it's nice to have your supports buy a couple and coordinate with the carry so they aren't hurting for mana. Given that they restore 135 and something like a Void's hero pool is like 400 early game, they're super useful on supports. Better than Arcane ring by far since they're much easier to get and more convenient. I think they enable the game to be played with people being able to use their spells instead of people running around constantly out of mana (like they used to in the way old Dota patches before Arcane boots or even ring)

-Grave locket is a cool item. It would be nice to see in Dota, but not sure how balanced it is given that it's basically like a mini-bloodstone for 1/10th the price. On the other hand, I love so many Dota items which aren't in HoN. To give some examples: Drums for a great early-game stat item which helps you secure kills, Abyssal for an amazing latgame item which provides a useful upgrade for a basher, and Mek for a really nice build-up super useful teamfight item (I'm not sure if something like Mek is in HoN anymore, I hear they changed it)

-Lack of Genjuro is kind of supplemented by existence of items like Abyssal. Also, I find Shadow Blade to be a really great item that provides roughly the same benefits on a smaller scale.

-Yeah, Rosh IS a huge issue. If you're Radiant and the Dire have good Rosh heroes they can often take it before you even have a chance to get there. I think Icefrog has kind of offset this advantage by giving Radiant some extra perks, to the point where some teams like Na'Vi even prefer Radiant over Dire. For instance, Radiant jungle is way better and more efficient overall, and you can kill/stack ancients on Radiant much easier. Still, I think Rosh is a big problem in some pub games. I'd be interested to see this addressed a bit more in the future.

-Dust is great. Invis heroes in Dota2 are such a nuisance, this is another good way of countering them. It's much better than sentries if you have to chase them around alot, and the slow is amazing. I just find it helps balance out how good invis is before your team is ready to buy a gem.

-Yes and no. Tiny isn't really a mid in Dota2, he's more of a safelane. The fact that he can purchase Aghanims and get a built-in cleave, more damage, and extra damage to buildings makes him a terrific carry. He also comboes extremely well with Wisp, and his passive is amazing. He's just not a hero you take mid though, his combo isn't as fast as in HoN. Pudge is worse overall than Devo, but his hook has slightly longer range so you can make some even more crazy hooks to initiate. Still, he's nowhere near as good as Devo with his ulti, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

-Neither are OP. Dota is actually a really balanced game, I don't think any specific hero is really overpowered right now. Naix is really strong but is easily countered by kiting and also isn't that amazing of a carry as the game goes really late. Huskar isn't OP at all, just playable now. You can't nuke him down with magic damage anymore when he's low, but you can still pick heroes like Tmber, AA, Skeleton King, etc. which have pure/HP removal spells. He gets totally raped by that, you just have to counterpick him.

-Yeah the community overall in Dota2 is a little better, since Valve seems to have done a better job encouraging it (no public MMR, bans/mutes for flaming, the ability to ignore plays voice AND text chat in one click, etc.). I think a big reason the community is better is that people fall for trolls / flamers less often. They just ignore them or make some funny comment and move on. Raging kiddies don't enjoy trolling or flaming anywhere near as much when they don't get a negative reaction or any attention from it. Still, you have a bunch of assholes but it'll always be that way in MOBAs. The fact that if I queue as 4 I find a decent 5th whose cooperative and polite 9/10 times as opposed to the 1/100 times I did in HoN is really a huge plus for me.


Btw, we should play again sometime. I kinda played like shit that Storm game, but I can probably carry most of those games if I practice my mid a bit.

This post was edited by sMACKTRiCKz on Aug 8 2013 01:19pm

dota/lol/hon

all of them got the same shittyass community

Yeah, the community isn't good in any of the games. But there's definitely a difference between the three. Dota2 I've noticed is a lot more pleasant for me overall than HoN. There's still retards, griefers, feeders, Russians, etc. but overall the atmosphere seems alot better.

You also have to understand your own attitude influences the atmosphere of the games immensely. If you're rude to people and fuck with them on purpose (regardless of what they did to you), naturally pretty much everyone will react like a dick. If you're polite and calm and don't get into a griefing/flaming war, it really goes a long way. Most guys are actually pretty nice and won't flame or fuck with you if you're just polite to them. I've had so many people start off by being jerks and I just joke around with them and remain totally cool and polite, and they instantly change their attitude and some even apologize for flaming earlier. Most players in these games are actually sweethearts, they just act like assholes by default because they expect everyone else to act the same way.

One thing though is I've noticed in HoN trying to be nice is just futile in most games. People are such huge trolls/ whiners / griefers, the majority of them will continue to be retards because they don't even want to win or enjoy the game, they just want to annoy others. In Dota2 I've noticed the opposite, but maybe I've just been lucky.

This post was edited by sMACKTRiCKz on Aug 8 2013 01:45pm

vestments now cost 500

i usually end up buying my own courier sometimes. agreed, forgot to mention that
(one game i randomed and went mid got my own courier got bloodlust and then just as i was about to get bottle some guy was delivering a tango on long lane CLAP)
drums are ok i guess made em a couple of times but they should have a recipe to upgrade or something and get charges
vladimir is a lot better in d2 forgot to mention that
also nullfire in hon is better cause u can stack attack modifiers with it afaik and in dota u can't
vanguard also is way different in hon, lot stonger with the charges
i don't mean the reveal dust i meant the one that u can use get invis, i usually play some kinda carry even tho i'm not as good in dota as i'm in hon but i generally have no room to buy it

i also miss the new items they added in hon the lightbringer dawn and so on
on the secret shop i won't ever agree with u i guess and i think that alone is the thing that annoys me most in dota now
i also don't know all the heroes which kinda gimps me and WTF they don't even show names under when picking which is dumb even if u r decent at mobas u prolly won't know them all by their avatar
overall dota2 is more played now by far, compared one day at like 8 pm cet and hon had like 6xK while dota had 340k so do the math

on a side note i can't believe we lost that game smack lol, we kinda noobed some fights and i got caught bot that time even tho i was layed decently back and had my fingers right on to pop bbk, they were faster to dive and kill me
e; also they killed roshan like 2-3 times that game or am i confusing it with another?

This post was edited by Pitbulul on Aug 8 2013 02:23pm

Yeah that game was dumb. My mid play is really awful tbh because I basically play every role other than mid in my games. I should have farmed a bit more and gotten BKB up before trying to take big fights. Btw, just as a tip on Sven you never really want to build Vanguard. That item is pretty bad except for in very specific situation or if you're playing Axe. Ideally you go (Midas) -> Treads -> (Drums or Armlet) -> Mask of Madness -> BKB -> Daedalus. Items in () are optional/situational. You also want to farm alot on that hero, you ideally want your BKB up by around 20-25 along with the other items since that hero is so worthless if he gets disabled.

As for drums, you can buy the recipe again to get 4 more charges, but it's basically never worth it. You end up keeping them just for the stats/aura and then you eventually sell them.

As for smoke (not dust, my bad), it's really great for avoiding wards and setting up ganks. You can use it from a courier and it's generally the supports job to buy it. It requires alot of coordination so you probably won't use it much in lower level games.

e: Oh yeah that courier situation where people deliver uselses items to themselves is so annoying. I mean, at least upgrade it if you're going to take it for a massive ride to the long lane with a set of tangoes on it.

This post was edited by sMACKTRiCKz on Aug 8 2013 02:32pm

yea that's why i picked sven, thought i should play something i'm familiar with and he's always ok in most setups with his disable
the build u say is pretty uncommon in hon, never seen ppl go for midas first unless ofc u can get it by 9-10 min
i thought vanguard was ok for a safer farm but i never really did farm much that game
blink is also common, but yea i agree should have built bkb faster. mask is nice although they changed it in hon so it only gives lifesteal when u activate it

im game in about an hour if u wanna play. i usually queue with a friend 2 man so if u go mid and one of us supports and we lane together it should be ok

In Dota you basically never go blink Sven unless you're supporting. You also only get Midas if you can get it by 6 minutes at the latest (4:30 or so ideally), and if you don't need any other items immediately to help your lane. Normally, you get it when you're safelane with a support against a solo or if you're crushing a lane so hard the enemies just leave.

Vanguard isn't really worth purchasing for safer farm. 2K gold is enough for a drum or coming close to an armlet, or half a BKB. You already have warcry which gives you a bunch of MS/armor. If that's not enough to escape a gank vanguard often won't be. Also, drums/armlet/bkb all give survivability, so you still tank up without Vanguard.

I'll be down to play later, but not for a few hours. TI3 is going and I have a bet on iG vs DK :D. Also, I'd honestly rather play safelane, but if you want to lane with your friends that's cool.

I haven't played much Dota2 (maybe 10ish games), but I've watched a good bit through streams. My opinions are largely in favor of what sMACKTRiCKz said. Having a positive attitude is INCREDIBLY important, even in HoN. I can't tell you how many games I've turned around by complimenting players (even when they don't deserve it) so that they will ward a spot for you, gank a hero, push with you, etc. Dota2 just feels and looks way too slow for me, and I feel like all of the graphics kind of mesh together and have a dull overall look. Attack animations are noticeably worse and that is just a constant annoyance I don't like to deal with.

I partially agree with the courier statement, although I feel like it too heavily penalizes pubs that troll their team. You can always buy it yourself, but seeing as how I'm used to midding in HoN it just seems like an enormous hassle.

I think that part of the reason I like HoN so much is that I'm very good at it and feel like I don't have enough time to learn all the Dota2 querks. The lack of a rating system also is very unappealing to me, I'm a very competitive player but don't have time for many organized or "pro" teams, so I just pub and boost / coach in the meantime.