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Mar 4 2011 06:44am
Starting a friendly debate on First Pick heroes.
Tier 1 - Witch Slayer, Deadwood, Thunderbringer
Go off from there to others because I am aware that there are quite a sum of Tier 1 picks based on how the team wants to synergize.

*I am aware that certain tier 1 picks are tier 1 because they counter other tier 1 picks specifically but do poorly against other heroes and vice versa.

Cheers
-JaySongs
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Mar 4 2011 06:48am
why deadwood?
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Mar 4 2011 07:06am
Quote (Odds @ Mar 4 2011 04:48am)
why deadwood?


^

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Mar 4 2011 07:13am
Hehe, I knew someone would mention that (was waiting for it).
So first let me rebuttal with a question to know of your current opinion and reasoning so I can properly explain to you why Deadwood is a tier 1 pick, (not necessarily first pick sorry for the misconception but tier 1 as in being a dominate solo mid and just an overall good hero to have i.e. Sandwraith; but you wouldn't FP Sandwraith first so I hope I haven't confused you).
Who wins middle, Deadwood or Thunderbringer? Think that one through before reading on.

They are about equally matched at lvl 1 (chain lightning damaged compared to DW physical damage with branch), but as the fight continue to scales, DW dominates TB mid. TB is known to be an AMAZING mid, but DW is one of those melee heroes (such as pharaoh and devourer) that can really offset a lot of ranged solo mid. You don't need a hatchet, you need stout shield (not against TB since harassing DW physically with TB should lead into getting OUT harrased by DW due to TBs low DMG and short RANGE) and as many set of consumables you find necessary you'll need before you can successfully farm a bottle without dying (since that is the ultimate goal of consumable for solo mid). <---- [Going off on a tangent, you seem generally beginner players who solo mid get mass consumables where as more confident players only get ONE single set of healing consumable before they farm bottle, though if a good player knows he is against a good player, he may think other wise (hopefully you understand this logic and you aren't being super confused; it's kind of a lot to take in].
DW has the highest base damage in the game if you include his branch. I would skill his 2nd skill (I forget the name; the stick thing) at LVL 1, LVL 3, and debatable at LVL 5 (depending on whether you know how to land your uproot (first skill) or whether you feel the need of having extra damage to creep (or harass and inevitably kill the lane). From level 3, you already have 80+ damage which is more than enough to out creep any hero. If played properly, with perfect understanding on how to creep with minimizing being harassed, DW automatically turns the flow of the middle lane once he hits 6 and the best part is, you can out play with surprise. [Sorry for the giant tutorial for my explanation but it feels necessary]
For instance at hitting 6, you could instantly throw a stick, uproot your opponent and kill them (depending on situation, but for the most part your opponent will not be in position to react to your ultimate as soon as you hit 6). A lot of beginning players don't know that it's an extremely useful thing to use the stick as a purge sort of skill to land uproots 4x more easier and get the DW punch off.
Heroes that counter DW mid are high armor/high hp heroes to begin with.

Okay don't want to right an essay here.

Cheers
-Jay Songs
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Mar 4 2011 07:18am
imo heroes that are worth FPing, whether it's because they're good or you can build a team around them, is entirely debatable and dependent on how good a player is at a certain hero
but i'd probably say:
witch slayer, magmus, vindicator, bubbles, doctor repulsor, pebbles
as confident first picks
anything else would probably be picked to counter enemy team
if i saw a first pick thunderbringer i'd grab electrician right away and have 95% confidence i'd stomp him mid
same with deadwood, i'm assuming he'd go mid and i'd grab any hero from 60% of the pool i'd be comfortable playing against a deadwood

This post was edited by dude150 on Mar 4 2011 07:22am
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Mar 4 2011 07:27am
I completely agree with you, that is the game of hero picking, which is in my opinion half the game! If you picked electrician against my TB, my team would pick other counters for Elec etc etc. goes on and on, but ignoring that whole process...
Magmus and pebbles is definitely not first pick. Magmus, slightly debatable, but pebbles in my opinion (and from replays of competitive DotA and HoN matches) that his solo mid is actually uncommon as in it is frequent, but definitely never the majority. Pebbles has to low base armor and without UBER luck on the stout shield, he is useless from level 1-2. A good solo mid player can definitely out harass pebbles. DR definitely tier 1 pick but countered by silence stick as you probably already know (sounds noob to just state random things like that which are basically common sense, but it was as if the silence stick was MADE for dr to balance him out... at least that's my out look on it because I think other than that, it would be stupid to get (yes exceptions)). Vindi... and Bubbles... I don't see vindi being picked first like in DotA, because vindi is usually banned already to ensure a type of team is not countered by his global/aura. and picking him first... (if he isn't banned) would mean the team would just build around that. As for bubbles, I'm not sure but I think his base damage is to low to be tier 1 pick. Bubbles or Hag? It's like I see bubbles as a solo top + tri lane kind of hero like hag. Hag is just more viable there due to blink. Bubbles range is only 550 compared to 600 and base dmg is not that good. That is my out look on your heroes listed.
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Mar 4 2011 08:21am
Quote (JaySongs @ Mar 4 2011 01:13pm)
Hehe, I knew someone would mention that (was waiting for it).
So first let me rebuttal with a question to know of your current opinion and reasoning so I can properly explain to you why Deadwood is a tier 1 pick, (not necessarily first pick sorry for the misconception but tier 1 as in being a dominate solo mid and just an overall good hero to have i.e. Sandwraith; but you wouldn't FP Sandwraith first so I hope I haven't confused you).
Who wins middle, Deadwood or Thunderbringer? Think that one through before reading on.

They are about equally matched at lvl 1 (chain lightning damaged compared to DW physical damage with branch), but as the fight continue to scales, DW dominates TB mid. TB is known to be an AMAZING mid, but DW is one of those melee heroes (such as pharaoh and devourer) that can really offset a lot of ranged solo mid. You don't need a hatchet, you need stout shield (not against TB since harassing DW physically with TB should lead into getting OUT harrased by DW due to TBs low DMG and short RANGE) and as many set of consumables you find necessary you'll need before you can successfully farm a bottle without dying (since that is the ultimate goal of consumable for solo mid). <---- [Going off on a tangent, you seem generally beginner players who solo mid get mass consumables where as more confident players only get ONE single set of healing consumable before they farm bottle, though if a good player knows he is against a good player, he may think other wise (hopefully you understand this logic and you aren't being super confused; it's kind of a lot to take in].
DW has the highest base damage in the game if you include his branch. I would skill his 2nd skill (I forget the name; the stick thing) at LVL 1, LVL 3, and debatable at LVL 5 (depending on whether you know how to land your uproot (first skill) or whether you feel the need of having extra damage to creep (or harass and inevitably kill the lane). From level 3, you already have 80+ damage which is more than enough to out creep any hero. If played properly, with perfect understanding on how to creep with minimizing being harassed, DW automatically turns the flow of the middle lane once he hits 6 and the best part is, you can out play with surprise. [Sorry for the giant tutorial for my explanation but it feels necessary]
For instance at hitting 6, you could instantly throw a stick, uproot your opponent and kill them (depending on situation, but for the most part your opponent will not be in position to react to your ultimate as soon as you hit 6). A lot of beginning players don't know that it's an extremely useful thing to use the stick as a purge sort of skill to land uproots 4x more easier and get the DW punch off.
Heroes that counter DW mid are high armor/high hp heroes to begin with.

Okay don't want to right an essay here.

Cheers
-Jay Songs


Quote (JaySongs @ Mar 4 2011 01:27pm)
I completely agree with you, that is the game of hero picking, which is in my opinion half the game! If you picked electrician against my TB, my team would pick other counters for Elec etc etc. goes on and on, but ignoring that whole process...
Magmus and pebbles is definitely not first pick. Magmus, slightly debatable, but pebbles in my opinion (and from replays of competitive DotA and HoN matches) that his solo mid is actually uncommon as in it is frequent, but definitely never the majority. Pebbles has to low base armor and without UBER luck on the stout shield, he is useless from level 1-2. A good solo mid player can definitely out harass pebbles. DR definitely tier 1 pick but countered by silence stick as you probably already know (sounds noob to just state random things like that which are basically common sense, but it was as if the silence stick was MADE for dr to balance him out... at least that's my out look on it because I think other than that, it would be stupid to get (yes exceptions)). Vindi... and Bubbles... I don't see vindi being picked first like in DotA, because vindi is usually banned already to ensure a type of team is not countered by his global/aura. and picking him first... (if he isn't banned) would mean the team would just build around that. As for bubbles, I'm not sure but I think his base damage is to low to be tier 1 pick. Bubbles or Hag? It's like I see bubbles as a solo top + tri lane kind of hero like hag. Hag is just more viable there due to blink. Bubbles range is only 550 compared to 600 and base dmg is not that good. That is my out look on your heroes listed.


tldr
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Mar 4 2011 08:30am
Quote (iffy1 @ Mar 4 2011 06:21am)
tldr


What does that abbreviate for?
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Mar 4 2011 08:53am
Quote (JaySongs @ Mar 4 2011 02:13pm)
Hehe, I knew someone would mention that (was waiting for it).
So first let me rebuttal with a question to know of your current opinion and reasoning so I can properly explain to you why Deadwood is a tier 1 pick, (not necessarily first pick sorry for the misconception but tier 1 as in being a dominate solo mid and just an overall good hero to have i.e. Sandwraith; but you wouldn't FP Sandwraith first so I hope I haven't confused you).
Who wins middle, Deadwood or Thunderbringer? Think that one through before reading on.

They are about equally matched at lvl 1 (chain lightning damaged compared to DW physical damage with branch), but as the fight continue to scales, DW dominates TB mid. TB is known to be an AMAZING mid, but DW is one of those melee heroes (such as pharaoh and devourer) that can really offset a lot of ranged solo mid. You don't need a hatchet, you need stout shield (not against TB since harassing DW physically with TB should lead into getting OUT harrased by DW due to TBs low DMG and short RANGE) and as many set of consumables you find necessary you'll need before you can successfully farm a bottle without dying (since that is the ultimate goal of consumable for solo mid). <---- [Going off on a tangent, you seem generally beginner players who solo mid get mass consumables where as more confident players only get ONE single set of healing consumable before they farm bottle, though if a good player knows he is against a good player, he may think other wise (hopefully you understand this logic and you aren't being super confused; it's kind of a lot to take in].
DW has the highest base damage in the game if you include his branch. I would skill his 2nd skill (I forget the name; the stick thing) at LVL 1, LVL 3, and debatable at LVL 5 (depending on whether you know how to land your uproot (first skill) or whether you feel the need of having extra damage to creep (or harass and inevitably kill the lane). From level 3, you already have 80+ damage which is more than enough to out creep any hero. If played properly, with perfect understanding on how to creep with minimizing being harassed, DW automatically turns the flow of the middle lane once he hits 6 and the best part is, you can out play with surprise. [Sorry for the giant tutorial for my explanation but it feels necessary]
For instance at hitting 6, you could instantly throw a stick, uproot your opponent and kill them (depending on situation, but for the most part your opponent will not be in position to react to your ultimate as soon as you hit 6). A lot of beginning players don't know that it's an extremely useful thing to use the stick as a purge sort of skill to land uproots 4x more easier and get the DW punch off.
Heroes that counter DW mid are high armor/high hp heroes to begin with.

Okay don't want to right an essay here.

Cheers
-Jay Songs


You already did. Anyway, I'm not sure what level of play you play at, but if we're talking competitive 2000+ psr play, Deadwood is nowhere near a first-tier hero. In fact, he is probably bottom-tier.

The reason he does so well in lower level games is because he requires very little skill to play correctly. For example, Slither is a hero that can easily dominate DW mid. However, match up a 1700 psr slither vs a 1700 psr DW, the slither will get crushed.
This trend actually continues until around 1850 psr, because to play an effective slither vs a heavy melee nuker like a Pebbles/DW/Devo, you have to have a certain level of skill and competence, whereas the enemy hero only really needs to click a few buttons. However, once that threshold is reached and you gain enough skill, you can shut down DW mid on your own without him having any chance. DW is great against unskilled opponents, but against high level players is a completely garbage pick, let me explain why:

1) The cooldown on his combo is WAY too long to be effective. 1+ minute just to kill someone effectively is simply far too great to be considered top tier in competitive play. This is why Pebbles sees alot more play, since even though he shares many of the same weaknesses as DW, his combo only has a 20 sec cooldown, and does just about as much damage.
2) DW relies on dominating mid and rune control to shine. If you get your teammates to roam to runes every 2 minutes and place a ward on his ramp so he can never grasp you, you can harass him out of mid and keep him out of exp range for the majority of the laning phase.
3) If you dual lane vs a DW mid, he's completely fucked. For pebbles, you can atleast send another support to babysit him mid and you might have a chance, since pebbs has alot of kill potential even before level 6. DW on the other hand only has grasp, which isn't that effective when comboed with another hero. He basically NEEDS to solo and get fast lvls to be useful, and that's easily counterable if you're a good player
4) Deadwood's combo just takes too long to kill someone. You typically blink in, punch, then grasp the stunned target, and whack him a few times. All of this takes about 3-4 seconds to net a kill, whereas Pebble's combo takes about 0.5 seconds. Since DW's combo takes so long, you can easily bait ganks, swap / tablet the hero being ganked out, and then proceed to rape DW hard without even allowing him to get a kill.

There's alot more I could go into, but basically DW is a completely garbage hero. He is far too easy to counter, and his combo just isn't efficient enough to be used in competitive play
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Mar 4 2011 11:47am
basically what smacktrickz said
in terms of disables, DW really has nothing useful when you're in a team fight, whereas pebbles can use his chuck creatively and has an AoE stun
and yeah, he's pretty much just a herp derp hero
(edit: blood hunter as well, many people lose a lane because they don't know how to stop a blood hunter who is just ignoring enemy hero presence and last hitting creeps)
you can't carry any games with him, just stomp pubs
same deal with thunderbringer, doesn't take much to get chalice/ring/bottle/whatever and spam bolts from level 5 and onward
i see many people who don't know how to deal with it and shit
like hags that will keep returning to the lane to get insta gib combo'd by a tb instead of moving around or doing whatever it takes to minimize tb's effectiveness

it also is no where near as simple as hellflower and gg to doc
most repulsors get hellflower as a part of his build, and ulting in + hellflowering the guy with the hellflower completely solves that problem
etc etc etc
imo, repulsor is definitely one of the hardest heroes to stop once he has his nullstone/hellflower/sheep/harkon's compared to most agility carries with the same amount of farm
his infinite mobility definitely puts him over the heroes you stated

This post was edited by dude150 on Mar 4 2011 11:50am
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