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Jan 21 2012 08:35am
The last couple of months I have been struggling a lot with this concept: The purpose of a Christian's life is to love God and love others. But, how do we define love? Is being salt and light a part of loving others? And if we refuse to be salt and light out of fear that people will reject Christianity, are we really loving them, or loving God at all?

Put another way, are we justified in watering down the standards of our faith so that it becomes acceptable for today's worldviews, or should we be standing strong and clearly expressing what Christianity is really about according to the Bible?
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Jan 21 2012 09:33am
This immediately came to mind:

1 Timothy 4:12 (NIV)
Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity.
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Jan 21 2012 09:41am
Quote (njaguar @ Jan 21 2012 07:33am)
This immediately came to mind:

1 Timothy 4:12 (NIV)
Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity.


:) thanks for this.
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Jan 22 2012 06:30am
Quote (njaguar @ Jan 21 2012 10:33am)
This immediately came to mind:

1 Timothy 4:12 (NIV)
Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity.


That's a good verse... but I still want to have a discussion about the topic. What is the definition of Christian love? Does strict adherence to the Bible actually, in conflict with today's worldviews, turn people away from the faith? It seems a common response is that rather than trying to "save" people, we are just supposed to "love" them. I totally agree that it is outside of our abilities to save. But, there is still an urgency to spread the faith because we DO play a role in God's plan, and it IS urgent because peoples eternities are on the line.

This post was edited by Diligence on Jan 22 2012 06:30am
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Jan 22 2012 10:22am
Quote (Diligence @ 22 Jan 2012 06:30)
That's a good verse... but I still want to have a discussion about the topic. What is the definition of Christian love? Does strict adherence to the Bible actually, in conflict with today's worldviews, turn people away from the faith? It seems a common response is that rather than trying to "save" people, we are just supposed to "love" them. I totally agree that it is outside of our abilities to save. But, there is still an urgency to spread the faith because we DO play a role in God's plan, and it IS urgent because peoples eternities are on the line.


That's just it, the commandment is to love others as yourself, and as Jesus loved/loves them. That said, there's plenty of verses about not judging others, without looking to yourself first. It doesn't say that you can't be critical of someone in the same way you are critical of yourself, however! It just means that you shouldn't be hypocritical in the way you look at other people, and obviously, not to judge them, because we cannot see the whole picture. We can only see bits and pieces.

As far as turning people away, I'd say that is not entirely accurate. Everyone is different, some people need a carrot, some people need a stick, and some need a combination of the two. I think the verse I quoted sums it up pretty well. We are called to go forth and preach the word to others, but we're also supposed to display ourselves in an appropriate manner (ie, that verse).

Everyone has different things that drive them. For some people, the issue of what happens when you're dead doesn't matter to them (or so they claim), but this isn't the only purpose or the reason to believe. We're not called to follow God to be rewarded or punished after we die, we're supposed to bring glory to Him always in all that we do. It's about giving credit where credit is due, which is to say, to God. The reward thing, while important, shouldn't be the only driving factor; it should be about doing things for God, for selfless reasons.
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Jan 22 2012 11:18am
And always remember to preach grace. For example, even Saul recieved grace after all he had done. Jesus changed his heart.
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Jan 22 2012 05:26pm
Quote (njaguar @ Jan 22 2012 11:22am)
That's just it, the commandment is to love others as yourself, and as Jesus loved/loves them. That said, there's plenty of verses about not judging others, without looking to yourself first. It doesn't say that you can't be critical of someone in the same way you are critical of yourself, however! It just means that you shouldn't be hypocritical in the way you look at other people, and obviously, not to judge them, because we cannot see the whole picture. We can only see bits and pieces.

As far as turning people away, I'd say that is not entirely accurate. Everyone is different, some people need a carrot, some people need a stick, and some need a combination of the two. I think the verse I quoted sums it up pretty well. We are called to go forth and preach the word to others, but we're also supposed to display ourselves in an appropriate manner (ie, that verse).

Everyone has different things that drive them. For some people, the issue of what happens when you're dead doesn't matter to them (or so they claim), but this isn't the only purpose or the reason to believe. We're not called to follow God to be rewarded or punished after we die, we're supposed to bring glory to Him always in all that we do. It's about giving credit where credit is due, which is to say, to God. The reward thing, while important, shouldn't be the only driving factor; it should be about doing things for God, for selfless reasons.


I'm not convinced I am expressing my point clearly. I really like the way you stated to be critical of someone only as much as you are critical of yourself - it puts a different light on treating others how you would like to be treated, which is essential. In fact, I would take it even further in accordance with Matthew 7:5 which states to completely remove your own plank before removing another's speck. My point is that there are many issues that I am not able to be critical of of myself. For example, I do not participate in many of the controversial sin issues such as homosexuality, abortion, drug use, death penalty, etc. Torm1, you were the catalyst for a clarifying but even more difficult question to answer: Where is the middle ground between legalism and grace?

Though 1 Timothy 4:12 contains much wisdom, I do not think it completely suffices for this topic. For example, the words conduct and purity themselves are controversial in that many people no longer consider their conducts or impurities wrong anymore, at least in comparison to tradition and Scripture.

Paul, of course we are not called to follow God simply to be rewarded or punished after we die. But, I would argue that a significant way by which we bring glory to God is by standing up against the wickedness of the world. I can't help but draw comparisons from the stories of Jonah (who didn't even want to preach the truth), King David who literally went to war against Goliath's cursing of God, Jesus' righteous anger in the temple, and so many other stories of God's people fighting against idolatry. Regardless of how non-Christians receive it, is standing up to wickedness not only considered love towards God but also to others by spreading the "Burden of Truth" to them?

One person argued to me that our purpose is not to try to convince or convict people by teaching these controversial truths because that is the Holy Spirit's job, because when we do, it actually just turns people away from God. Instead, we are just supposed to love them like Jesus loves them. I'm not sure I agree. I would argue that it is our job to teach what is Biblical and that the Holy Spirit will produce the heart change from there. And, I would argue that their interpretations of how Jesus loved people is flawed. He never let anyone live in their sin out of fear that they would turn away from him!
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Jan 22 2012 07:28pm
Quote (Ezekiel 3:18-20)
18 When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for[a] their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself. 20 “Again, when a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sin. The righteous things that person did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous person not to sin and they do not sin, they will surely live because they took warning, and you will have saved yourself.”


What are your thoughts on this passage?
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Jan 22 2012 08:35pm
Matthew 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

This is a pretty clear commandment on what to do. This and other verses make it very clear that we're not supposed to sit by idly and not "spread the word". In fact, if you do not spread the word, you are violating the commandment to love others as you love yourself, as Jesus loved others. If you are following that commandment, by nature and virtue of doing so, you would naturally be preaching the word of God. To not do so could and does mean damnation for the unsaved, which is not loving at all. Any mincing to make it seem like it's more loving to let someone be, and do their own thing is just flat out wrong.

That said, we can only do so much, and yes, it is possible to do more harm than good in some cases. I would simply say that you should only attempt to help someone insofar as your abilities to do so. Much like it would be foolish to perform surgery on someone's appendix if you're not a surgeon, one should defer more deep spiritual issues and problems to those best capable of assisting, whenever possible. Know your limits, but always study, because this sort of thing is a lifelong pursuit, not a weekend hobby.
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Jan 22 2012 08:51pm
I'm white should i be a christian?
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