There seems to be some misunderstanding about what baptism of the Holy Spirit really is. To try to explain and hopefully clear up any misunderstanding I have put together the following. If you choose to believe otherwise then that is your free will to do so as God has given you.


The first mention of baptism with the Holy Spirit is by John the Baptist as recorded in Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, and Luke 3:16 ("Holy Spirit" is the translation of most versions. The phrase "Holy Spirit" will appear in this post as synonymous with "Holy Ghost.") John came to prepare the way of the Lord (Mark 1:1-3). He denied that he was the Christ and told the people to believe in the one who would come after him. That one was Jesus. He testified that Jesus was greater than he. To illustrate this he said "I indeed baptize you in water... but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, ... he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire" (Matthew 3:11).

The fire of this passage is identified in the context as "unquenchable fire" and is the fire of everlasting punishment. This fire burns up the chaff and the unfruitful tree (Matthew 3:10, 12; Luke 3:9, 17). Unquenchable everlasting fire is the destination of the disobedient and unbelieving in final judgement (See II Thessalonians 1: 7-10; Matthew 25: 41, 46; Acts 17: 31; Revelation 20: 12-15; 21: 8 ). This baptism will happen in the future..

The baptism with the Holy Spirit is passed. It was fulfilled in the days of the New Testament. Jesus said to his apostles, "For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence" (Acts 1:5). Approximately ten days later on the day of Pentecost, the apostles "were all filled with the Holy Ghost and spake with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4). Later in Acts 10:44, the Spirit also fell upon the household of Cornelius. Peter understood the falling of the Holy Spirit on the household of Cornelius and that of the apostles' reception of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost to be cases of baptism with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44; 11:15-17). These are the only examples of baptism with the Holy Spirit found in the Bible.

It should be noted that in the case of Cornelius' household, Peter could not refer to any example of what had taken place except that which had occurred on Pentecost "at the beginning," Acts 11:15. This beginning was the beginning of the preaching of "repentance and the remission of sins" in the name of Christ at Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38). Baptism with the Holy Spirit was not a common occurrence even in New Testament times.

One fact is often overlooked concerning the baptism with the Holy Spirit in Acts 2. In Acts 2 only the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit. This can be observed by reading Acts 1:26 and Acts 2:1 consecutively. "And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place." "They" in Acts 2:1 logically refers back to "apostles" in Acts 1:26. But continue to note when Peter speaks in Acts 2:14, the text says he stood "up with the eleven," referring to the remaining eleven apostles. Also after Peter's sermon the multitude addressed "Peter and the rest of the apostles" (Acts 2:37). The apostles were the ones who stood before this mixed multitude from every nation under heaven (Acts 2:5). The apostles were the ones they heard speaking in each man's own tongue (language) the wonderful works of God (Acts 2:4, 6, 8, 11).

Jesus told the apostles they would receive power after that the Holy Spirit had come upon them, Acts 1:8. This power was manifest only in the apostles up until Acts 6:8. A disciple, Stephen, not an apostle, did "great wonders and miracles among the people." This reception by Stephen of the power after the Holy Spirit came upon him was not baptism with the Holy Spirit, for this reception was administered by the apostles through "the laying on of hands" (See also Acts 8:18). Remember Jesus was the only one who is said to baptize with the Holy Spirit (See John 1:33).

After the falling of the Spirit on Cornelius' household, there were no other occurrences of baptism with the Holy Spirit. This is evidenced by the words of the apostle Paul in Ephesians 4:4-5, "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism." Therefore, at the time of the writing of the epistle to the Ephesians there was only one baptism. That baptism is water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 28:18- 20; Acts 10:47-48).

Consider the example of men baptized in the city of Ephesus recorded by Luke in Acts 19:1-7. About twelve men were baptized "in the name of the Lord Jesus." This could not have been with the Holy Spirit. This was a baptism administered by men and obeyed by men. Again, baptism with the Holy Spirit is administered only by Jesus and is not obeyed. The Holy Spirit did "come upon" these same men, but in the same way that it had come upon Stephen, by the laying on of the hands of an apostle (Acts 19:6). Therefore, this was not baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Baptism with the Holy Spirit was the means by which the Holy Spirit initially came in fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel 2:28. That prophecy began to be fulfilled on the first Pentecost after the resurrection of Jesus, Acts 2:14-21. The Spirit came on that day on the apostles, directly from heaven with the manifestation of sound, "like as of a rushing mighty wind" and sight, "cloven tongues like as of fire" (Acts 2:2-3). Jesus in accordance with his own words and in agreement with John's had baptized with the Holy Spirit. This baptism was again repeated at Cornelius' house in Acts 10:44-45. Jesus , not the apostles or any man, baptized these with the Holy Spirit. All other receptions of the Holy Spirit recorded were not direct from heaven by Jesus, but through the mediation of the apostles.

The baptism with the Holy Spirit served the purpose of empowering the apostles to give inerrant witness of the Christ, while confirming the testimony with "signs following" (Acts 1:8; Luke 24:46-49; John 14:26; 15:26; 16:10-13; Mark 16:15-20 and Hebrews 2:3-4). Even in the case of Cornelius' household, Peter later explains the purpose of Jesus baptizing them with the Holy Spirit. In Acts 15:8 he says it was God's bearing the Gentiles witness that they were also to be recipients of the blessing in Christ. Today there is one baptism, water baptism in the name of the Lord. Holy Spirit baptism has already come and been fulfilled. Baptism with fire will be in the day of judgement when water baptism will no longer be enforce. The baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is "even until the end of the world" (Matthew 28:20). It is a baptism commanded by Jesus Christ (Mark 16:15-16; Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 2:38; Acts 10:33, 48). Have you obeyed that command?

If anyone has rebuttal, please use the scriptures to back up your position.

Matthew 21

the man next to jesus on the cross received salvation without a water baptism, how is this possible?
read the bible man! Jesus' message was faith not works, believe and you will be saved! i will repost this verse
romans 10:9-10
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
you were most likely raised in a church of christ and taught this doctrine, because i do not see how anyone reading the scripture searching for answers could come to this conclusion.

I have explained the thief on the cross and how he was saved twice now. but I can do it again if you need me too.

By mentioning Romans 10:9-10 "which says", "9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." and "10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." You have mentioned two of God's requirements. How is this any different than Act 2:38 that says, "Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Please note here, the multitude was not baptised with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was a gift AFTER repentance and baptism. This is another subject in its own.

Believe, Repent, Confession and Baptism are all commandments of God along with living a Faithful Christian life. People cannot pick and choose what they want.


I read the Bible last night. Did you? Answer truthfully, God knows.
Faith only doctrine of man has been proven false earlier but I can do that again if I need to.
Believe only doctrine of man has also been proven to be false.
I was not raised in a Church of Christ, I was raised in a Baptist church but I seen the error's of my teachings and am now a member of God's church, the Church of Christ. Sounds like you were raised in a Baptist church.

WhirlingDervish,

Was there anything particular verse you wanted to point out in Matthew 21?

BTW, responders to this post should be addressing baptism with the Holy Spirit and what it really is. Can we stay on topic from here on out. Please.

I have explained the thief on the cross and how he was saved twice now. but I can do it again if you need me too.

sorry you post a lot of text, i must have missed it. if you could just copy paste it here please. Are you saying an exception was made? I'm interested to see your response.

By mentioning Romans 10:9-10 "which says", "9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believein your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." and "10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." You have mentioned two of God's requirements. How is this any different than Act 2:38 that says, "Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptizedin the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Please note here, the multitude was not baptised with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was a gift AFTER repentance and baptism. This is another subject in its own.

Believe, Repent, Confession and Baptism are all commandments of God along with living a Faithful Christian life. People cannot pick and choose what they want.

You know my answer here. I believe that peter was talking about a baptism of receiving the holy spirit when one believes in Jesus as their savior.
So you are saying in Romans it leaves out part of what is required for salvation? I think its pretty clear when it says " If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
How is that only 2 of the requirements? It clearly says you will be saved.

I read the Bible last night. Did you? Answer truthfully, God knows.

lol? you are questioning my personal relationship with Christ and then warning me of the penalty of lieing? This has to be a joke. The answer is yes I read my bible last night.
What if i hadn't? lol, this doesnt matter at all. Some of the mostly godly men i know have quiet times in the morning and middle of the day and may not read their bibles at night. What does this have to do at all about our discussion?

Faith only doctrine of man has been proven false earlier but I can do that again if I need to.
Believe only doctrine of man has also been proven to be false.

no, i believe the words of the bible. It clearly states "Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." You are having a hard time understanding this verse, that is why i keep posting it.
I believe that paul was writing the words of God and did not leave out anything. That is how you are saved.

I was not raised in a Church of Christ, I was raised in a Baptist church but I seen the error's of my teachings and am now a member of God's church, the Church of Christ. Sounds like you were raised in a Baptist church.

Interesting.
Why does it sound like i was raised baptist?
I was raised and still attend a bible church
BTW, responders to this post should be addressing baptism with the Holy Spirit and what it really is. Can we stay on topic from here on out. Please.

were you taking to me here?

This post was edited by bryce722 on Feb 12 2011 05:25pm

lol what!? Where are you getting your ideas from?



Have you ever heard of being "refined by fire"

What are you going to do when you have to undergo the 7 year Great Tribulation?

This post was edited by Torm1 on Feb 12 2011 06:09pm

Ok, first of all, I am in no way what so ever trying to be hostile in any way, shape or form. When people type words on a screen the receiver cannot see the senders facial expression or hear their tone. Now that, that is out of the way let us proceed.

I will start with last things first.

were you taking to me here?
Yes and no, yes because nothing you said was related to any form of baptism, no because it was meant for all responders.

Why does it sound like i was raised baptist?
Yes, your belief is typical Baptist belief.

no, i believe the words of the bible. It clearly states "Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." You are having a hard time understanding this verse, that is why i keep posting it.
I believe that paul was writing the words of God and did not leave out anything. That is how you are saved.
I understand this and completely agree with it 100%. But the facts are you still need baptism for the remission of sin just as Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 says. It amazes me how someone can read either of those two verses and think baptism is not required for salvation.

In post #3 you said read the bible man!
I took this as you think I am not reading the bible. I was letting you know that I do read it and when the last time was that I did read it.

You know my answer here. I believe that peter was talking about a baptism of receiving the holy spirit when one believes in Jesus as their savior.
Can you give me the verse you think this happens? The baptism with the Holy Spirit is passed. It was fulfilled in the days of the New Testament. Jesus said to his apostles, "For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence" (Acts 1:5). Approximately ten days later on the day of Pentecost, the apostles "were all filled with the Holy Ghost and spake with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4). Later in Acts 10:44, the Spirit also fell upon the household of Cornelius. Peter understood the falling of the Holy Spirit on the household of Cornelius and that of the apostles' reception of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost to be cases of baptism with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44; 11:15-17). These are the only examples of baptism with the Holy Spirit found in the Bible. Show me where someone else was baptised with the Holy Spirit. Don't get this confused with "receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit" those are totally different.

So you are saying in Romans it leaves out part of what is required for salvation? I think its pretty clear when it says " If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
Do you think we should ignore other parts of God's word that is required such as repentance and baptism for the remission of sin? Acts 2:38 says, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" NOW! are you saying that Acts 2:38 leaves out part of what is required for salvation? I think anyone who reads Acts 2:38 will realize that in order to have their sins forgiven will be required to repent AND be baptised. This is so plain and simple, how can anyone think this is not a requirement to be saved WHEN GOD SAYS IT IS!!!

sorry you post a lot of text, i must have missed it. if you could just copy paste it here please. Are you saying an exception was made? I'm interested to see your response.

Here you are asking how the thief on the cross was saved.
First, the thief on the cross was saved because Jesus spoke his sins forgiven, Luke 23:43 says, "And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Jesus had power while on earth to remit sins. Matthew 9:1-8 says, "1 So He got into a boat, crossed over, and came to His own city. 2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.” 3 And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, “This Man blasphemes!” 4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’? 6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” 7 And he arose and departed to his house. 8 Now when the multitudes saw it, they marveled and glorified God, who had given such power to men".

Second, it cannot be proven that the thief had not been baptized. Multitudes came from Judaea to John the Baptist to be baptized of him, (Matthew 3:5). Also, the thief had some knowledge of the coming kingdom (Luke 23:42). Where had he heard this "kingdom message?" This was John the Baptist's message from the beginning of his work (Matthew 3:2). Thus, there is some evidence to suggest the thief had been taught at an earlier time. Although the Bible does not say, from the facts we do know, it is very possible the thief was baptised.

Paul said a man who received the baptism of John was to believe on Him who was to come after, that is, on Jesus (Acts 19:4). The thief certainly did this. However, it is a moot point as Jesus clearly stated the thief would join Him in paradise that same day.


After you read all of this, I want you to do at least this one thing for me. Before you reply again to this post, read Acts 2:38 and tell me how you come to the conclusion baptism is not one of God's requirements for the forgiveness of sin. I want that to be the first thing you answer for me.

My "ideas" come frome God's word, the Bible.

he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire" (Matthew 3:11).

The fire of this passage is identified in the context as "unquenchable fire" and is the fire of everlasting punishment. This fire burns up the chaff and the unfruitful tree (Matthew 3:10, 12; Luke 3:9, 17). Unquenchable everlasting fire is the destination of the disobedient and unbelieving in final judgement (See II Thessalonians 1: 7-10; Matthew 25: 41, 46; Acts 17: 31; Revelation 20: 12-15; 21: 8 ). This baptism will happen in the future..

You seem to be ok at quoting things but you need to explain what you are quoting. Can you tell me what you think "refined by fire is". Also, tell us what the "7 year great tribulation is". Please quote book chapter and verse when you do please. Also, please don't just quote a verse, explain to me what the verse is tell you.

This post was edited by Kisssofdeath on Feb 12 2011 07:15pm

my response to acts 2:38
If you read the verse in context; Peter is talking to a group of people sorry for the sins they have been committing. There were hardly any Christians to speak of at this time and the reason peter tells them to be baptized is so they can publicly announce their faith in Jesus Christ. It has nothing to do with their salvation and everything to do with them identifying themselves with Christ and with the community of believers.


Yes and no, yes because nothing you said was related to any form of baptism, no because it was meant for all responders.

everything i said related to the importance of baptism by water, on topic

Yes, your belief is typical Baptist belief.
fair enough, it is not limited to the baptist denomination however.


I understand this and completely agree with it 100%. But the facts are you still need baptism for the remission of sin just as Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 says. It amazes me how someone can read either of those two verses and think baptism is not required for salvation.

my response to acts is above, my response to mark 16:16 is:
Jesus says "whoever does not believe will be condemned." Why wouldnt he say "whoever does not believe or is not baptized will be condemned?"
Again i think he is talking about the baptism of the holy spirit, not a physical water baptism.


I took this as you think I am not reading the bible. I was letting you know that I do read it and when the last time was that I did read it.
Sorry if that sounded offensive, wasnt meant to be at all I was getting excited. And i completely understand what you posted to start your post and i understand where you are coming from.


Can you give me the verse you think this happens? The baptism with the Holy Spirit is passed. It was fulfilled in the days of the New Testament. Jesus said to his apostles, "For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence" (Acts 1:5). Approximately ten days later on the day of Pentecost, the apostles "were all filled with the Holy Ghost and spake with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4). Later in Acts 10:44, the Spirit also fell upon the household of Cornelius. Peter understood the falling of the Holy Spirit on the household of Cornelius and that of the apostles' reception of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost to be cases of baptism with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44; 11:15-17). These are the only examples of baptism with the Holy Spirit found in the Bible. Show me where someone else was baptised with the Holy Spirit. Don't get this confused with "receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit" those are totally different.

So you are saying that when jesus said " For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence" that only applied to the apostles at Pentecost? That is where you are wrong.
Read Acts 11:15-18


Do you think we should ignore other parts of God's word that is required such as repentance and baptism for the remission of sin? Acts 2:38 says, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" NOW! are you saying that Acts 2:38 leaves out part of what is required for salvation? I think anyone who reads Acts 2:38 will realize that in order to have their sins forgiven will be required to repent AND be baptised. This is so plain and simple, how can anyone think this is not a requirement to be saved WHEN GOD SAYS IT IS!!!

First of all Peter said this, not God. I posted my response to acts at the beginning.



Second, it cannot be proven that the thief had not been baptized. Multitudes came from Judaea to John the Baptist to be baptized of him, (Matthew 3:5). Also, the thief had some knowledge of the coming kingdom (Luke 23:42). Where had he heard this "kingdom message?" This was John the Baptist's message from the beginning of his work (Matthew 3:2). Thus, there is some evidence to suggest the thief had been taught at an earlier time. Although the Bible does not say, from the facts we do know, it is very possible the thief was baptised.

Paul said a man who received the baptism of John was to believe on Him who was to come after, that is, on Jesus (Acts 19:4). The thief certainly did this. However, it is a moot point as Jesus clearly stated the thief would join Him in paradise that same day.

That is weak. Everyone there knows what jesus proclaims to be. The sign over his head, the other criminal, the roman guard etc. They all know it.
This man was a criminal, i think the chances of him going out and being baptized by John are extremely unlikely. Even if he did though, John's message was REPENT. John himself said "i baptize you with water for repentance" so if the criminal was baptized and didnt repent what good was the baptism?

I have a question for you: Can someone receive the holy spirit and not be saved?
before answering read Ephesians 1:13-14

If baptism is a requirement for salvation, what does this say about Jesus and the Apostle Paul? Jesus did save people...He saved the multitudes. Last verse is the account with Zacchaeus:

For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power ~1 Corinthians 1:17

Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John— although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples ~John 4:1-2

Then Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, ‘Look, Lord, I give half of my goods to the poor; and if I have taken anything from anyone by false accusation, I restore fourfold.’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost ~Luke 19:8-10

Wouldn't the need for mentioning baptism be required in these verses as well?

If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation ~Romans 10:9-10

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek ~Romans 1:16

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise ~Ephesians 1:13

Check out these verses too:

Luke 1:77, Luke 2:30, Luke 3:6, Acts 4:12, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, 2 Timothy 3:15